Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election (Discusson on how repentance and the Atonement applies to us after receiving our C&E)
| Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #928] |
Tue, 21 August 2012 13:49  |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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I was talking with my mom, and she reminded me of a story I'd heard many times as a child, but had forgotten. My great-grandma (who saw and talked with spirits regularly), talked with my great-grandpa a couple of times after he died. One of the times, he said something that I never quite understood, but see differently after having read through this thread. I guess she asked him about what he was doing "over there", and first of all, he said there were places he could not go - not physical lines, but in a sense, lines he could not cross yet. And he also told her "I have to go to Hell for awhile". I always thought that was weird. But now I wonder if he might have received his C&E in this life, and had to pay for his sins that he committed after receiving the promise - and that's what he was telling my great-grandma!
~Jules
[Updated on: Wed, 22 August 2012 21:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Lev. 16 - The Day of Atonement [message #947 is a reply to message #932] |
Wed, 22 August 2012 10:52  |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Denryu wrote on Tue, 21 August 2012 17:35That would not be according to my limited understanding, Jules.
The only people who have to spend time in hell, "purgatory", are those who do not accept the atonement when they have the opportunity in this life.
If you receive your C&E, even if you sin afterwards (almost a sure bet that you will) you do not personally have to suffer for those sins, Christ already paid that price.
My response is both overkill and at the same time not enough...but that's what I've got right now....
Jules is learning about some of the changes that we see in doctrine for those who have their C&E. She does not see it clearly now, and so is exploring the concept. The change she is specifically referring to is:
Quote: D&C 132:26 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
When you make your calling and election sure, the law is fulfilled, you become "Firstborn" of the father and inherit all things, old things are done away and All things become new".
Quote: 3Ne. 12:45-48: That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.
46 Therefore those things which were of old time, which were under the law, in me are all fulfilled.
47 Old things are done away, and all things have become new.
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.
Everything changes when you get your calling and election made sure. Adam fell from a Terrestrial state to a Telestial state. Christ came to redeem mankind from the fall, or in other words, bring them back into a Terrestrial state. Once we have been saved from the fall and brought back to the starting point, (a Terrestrial state), we have been redeemed from the fall, And the atonement have fulfilled its purpose. (The atonement saves fallen man who are in the Telestial state and brings them to the Terrestrial State where they can begin to work on their Perfection and Exaltation.
So, we when we have been redeemed from the fall, then we leave the foundation of the Aaronic priesthood laws and ordinances and move on to perfection. (Remember that the entire Aaronic Priesthood principles, laws and ordinances are entirely focused on overcoming the fall, sin and transgression.) The following scripture is in direct correlation with what Jesus taught above, but more clear...
Quote:Heb. 6:1-6 - Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God fresh, and put him to an open shame.
Once the atonement is completed in your life, it is no longer available... (bum, bum bummmmm)  This takes us back to D&C 132:26 as quoted above where those who have their C&E will be destroyed in the flesh and receive the buffetings of Satan until the day they are resurrected. (Hopefully they will be twinkled as they have already suffered the buffetings of Satan...a discussion for the Firstborn section...)
This is not doctrine generally taught to those who have not yet received their C&E. As most of the church has not, it is not taught in church because it isn't applicable in the stage of progression which most of the church is currently in.
What is applicable to understand is that the truths of the Telestial kingdom are the lies of the Celestial Kingdom. So, DON"T GET STUCK thinking that "This is the only way it works and I won't accept anything else."
The kingdoms do not teach the same doctrines. Truth is relevant only in its sphere where God placed it. Also, intelligence, (us), are placed in sphere's or kingdoms and we are held to the truths which exist there, and not the truths which other sphere's are bound to.
Quote:D&C 93:30 - All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
By independant, it means that truth will stand for itself because it is truth, but it will only stand for itself in the sphere or kingdom where God placed it. It will fall in an other kingdom or sphere...
Amonhi
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| Re: Lev. 16 - The Day of Atonement [message #957 is a reply to message #947] |
Thu, 23 August 2012 03:26 |
joheri
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2010
Location: NO
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Junior Member |
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Wow, this talkes right to my heart, Amonhi. These days I have begun to see things as they really are. I particularly liked your quote from D&C 93:30. I had seen it somewhere else but hadn't noticed that particular scripture.
There is so much truth conceiled in the Church today which can be seen by those who are willing to see. Sadly, very few will.
Still, I struggle to determine whether or not I myself have had my C&E, though. (Just as a side note.)
- Joheri -
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| Re: Lev. 16 - The Day of Atonement [message #958 is a reply to message #947] |
Thu, 23 August 2012 04:25 |
joheri
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2010
Location: NO
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Again this speaks right to my heart. I particularly liked your quote from D&C 93:30, Amonhi. I realize that the Church is so full of truth can't be seen or even understood by most members. It's right there, especially in the Temple.
- Joheri -
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #966 is a reply to message #965] |
Thu, 23 August 2012 10:11 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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Denryu wrote on Thu, 23 August 2012 09:48Jules,
A sacrifice is offered, the buffetings of Satan are something you are subjected to. 
What I'm seeing, is this:
"for I will justify him;" - The Savior will "declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; or acquit..." . So He will declare Joseph clean...
"for he shall do" - FOR, or "seeing that; since; or because...". So He is saying BECAUSE he will do this....
"he shall do the sacrifice" - he SHALL DO, or he doesn't have a choice in the matter....
"the sacrifice which I require at his hands" - The Savior is REQUIRING a sacrifice, (to make a sacrifice or offering of, to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else, to dispose of goods, property, etc. regardless of profit), from Joseph...
"for his transgressions" - FOR or BECAUSE OF his transgressions.
Then this:
Quote: and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption
...is talking about the same thing - someone having received their C&E will be required to sacrifice because of their transgressions, in order to be justified.
~Jules
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #970 is a reply to message #966] |
Thu, 23 August 2012 11:38 |
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Denryu
Messages: 88
Registered: July 2012
Location: American Fork
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I am not seeing this as you do. That's OK, this has given me something to ponder and consider.
Even if the Lord requires something of us, we still have our agency on whether or not to meet that requirement. Also a sacrifice implies agency also - you have to have a choice or it is no sacrifice.
Being delivered up to the buffetings of Satan - there is no choice available to the recipient - suffering a consequence that at that point there is no alternative and is beyond his or her control.
I love this board, and you, and hope that does not come across as contentious. It's not intended. But our understandings are on different places on this, and I am not qualified and am not claiming superior, inferior, or "equal but different".
I hope we aren't talking past each other - I don't think we are, and hope that together and possible with some guidance from some of the other members that we can both increase our understanding on this.
Although, in truth, what the Lord was requiring or teaching Joseph Smith is not very important to us, compared to understanding what he requires of us. I love expanding my understanding, but I am beginning to learn that vast understanding with little doing is of little worth compared to small understanding but perfect compliance of what we understand.
Libertas optimas rarem, nunquam servili sub nexu.
"There is no gift like Liberty, therefore never live under slavery."
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #971 is a reply to message #970] |
Thu, 23 August 2012 12:45 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Denryu wrote on Thu, 23 August 2012 11:38I am not seeing this as you do. That's OK, this has given me something to ponder and consider.
Even if the Lord requires something of us, we still have our agency on whether or not to meet that requirement. Also a sacrifice implies agency also - you have to have a choice or it is no sacrifice.
Being delivered up to the buffetings of Satan - there is no choice available to the recipient - suffering a consequence that at that point there is no alternative and is beyond his or her control.
I love this board, and you, and hope that does not come across as contentious. It's not intended. But our understandings are on different places on this, and I am not qualified and am not claiming superior, inferior, or "equal but different".
I hope we aren't talking past each other - I don't think we are, and hope that together and possible with some guidance from some of the other members that we can both increase our understanding on this.
Although, in truth, what the Lord was requiring or teaching Joseph Smith is not very important to us, compared to understanding what he requires of us. I love expanding my understanding, but I am beginning to learn that vast understanding with little doing is of little worth compared to small understanding but perfect compliance of what we understand.
Heavens no Kevin!! I don't feel like you are coming across that way at all! I'm loving this discussion (and the Elliaison forum), where we can explore this stuff with the spirit of honestly seeking the truth! (Besides, I may be totally off, and Amonhi or someone will come set me straight....  LOL).
Regarding the "buffetings of Satan", I just ran into this:
Quote:BUFFETINGS OF SATAN.
See Damnation, Devil, Fire and Brimstone, Hell.
To be turned over to the buffetings of Satan is to be given into his hands; it is to be turned over to him with all the protective power of the priesthood, of righteousness, and of godliness removed, so that Lucifer is free to torment, persecute, and afflict such a person without let or hindrance. When the bars are down, the cuffs and curses of Satan, both in this world and in the world to come, bring indescribable anguish typified by burning fire and brimstone. The damned in hell so suffer.
Those who broke their covenants in connection with the United Order in the early days of this dispensation were to "be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption." (D&C 78:12;82:20-21; 104:9-10.) A similar fate (plus destruction in the flesh) is decreed against those who have been sealed up unto eternal life so that their callings and elections have been made sure and who thereafter turn to grievous sin. (D&C 131:5, 132:19-26.)
BRM, Mormon Doctrine, pg.108
I found those sources that are underlined also helpful with regard to this topic.... 
~Jules
[Updated on: Thu, 23 August 2012 12:46] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #972 is a reply to message #971] |
Thu, 23 August 2012 13:53 |
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Denryu
Messages: 88
Registered: July 2012
Location: American Fork
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Good stuff!
So what I get from that is that there are two groups (if not more) that are turned over to the buffetings of Satan until some point of the first resurrection:
1) Those who have had their C&E made sure that have then committed GRIEVOUS sin.
2) Those who have not received their C&E, but have broken covenants - they still may partake of the first resurrection, but will be "purged" through Satan's torments. (An extended baptism of fire? see my thoughts on the LDSFF if you still hang out there).
Do you have any reason to believe your grandfather had received his C&E, or is it just based on this experience of your grandmother's?
I just had another thought that I want to put down for your comment or anyone else that wants to correct or agree:
There are those who die LIVING a celestial law - members of the Church of the Firstborn, recipients of C&E who do NOT commit grievous sin. These are not subject to the buffetings of Satan at all but enter immediately into "the Lord's rest".
Those who are living a TERRESTRIAL law includes those who received their C&E but then committed "grievous sin" (but NOT shed innocent blood or deny the Holy Ghost) and also church members who have NOT received their C&E but have lived a terrestrial law, and also those who had not the opportunity to receive the fullness of the gospel in mortality who accept it in the next life. All of these, I believe, will suffer the torments of hell between their death and the first resurrection. I do not think the first resurection is a singular event. Possibly it might be occuring throughout the millenium. I believe that if you are purged and then resurected at any time before the end of the millenium, this qualifies for "First resurrection". I have no basis for this other than my own insights and thoughts.
Then of course the 2nd resurection is after the millenium for those that lived a telestial law. Not sure if SOPs will be briefly resurected at this time to be judged of God or not. I believe so, but am not sure.
As always I welcome any correction or other perspectives.
Libertas optimas rarem, nunquam servili sub nexu.
"There is no gift like Liberty, therefore never live under slavery."
[Updated on: Thu, 23 August 2012 15:09] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #980 is a reply to message #971] |
Fri, 24 August 2012 14:51 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Quote:But our understandings are on different places on this.
Well said. It is difficult to understand the the world of the C&Er from the view point of another kingdom. ALL THINGS become new.
Again, this is a discussion that is had in the Firstborn section where it is practice as it is only theory and wonder for other groups.
Alma the Younger experienced the buffetings of Satan when he was harrowed up in his sins.
Quote:Alma 36:12
12 But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.
The suffering that we go through is equal to our sins because it is caused by our sins. As we realize how our actions have hurt others, just as Alma expresses above. The suffering we experience is not unrelated to our actions. We don't have to wait until death to do this either. Those who will be twinkled will have suffered prior to death. And the word suffering is very misleading. It isn't about the suffering or the punishment or justice. It is about realizing how your actions have hurt others. On the other hand we will also see how our actions have helped others. Bitter/Sweet experience. Being able to forgive ourselves as we do others will be an important thing.
Many people suffer the buffetings of Satan right now/today. This suffering is a natural result/consequence for our actions. We must eventually overcome this issue by "Living to the highest light you have been given". But don't fall into the trap of trying to avoid punishment. Instead, do good because you are good.
If you are clean today, then you have nothing to suffer. So, stay clean, keep the spirit, and be good. Live by faith and hope and joy.
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #981 is a reply to message #972] |
Fri, 24 August 2012 15:39 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Denryu wrote on Thu, 23 August 2012 12:531) Those who have had their C&E made sure that have then committed GRIEVOUS sin.
Any sins, not just grievous sins as McConkie says. "Any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever" - D&C 132:26, but as I said before, it isn't Hell the way that we tend to be taught. "Liers are thrust down to hell"...when they get caught in the lie. That is the hell. It is a hell of our own making.
Quote:2) Those who have not received their C&E, but have broken covenants - they still may partake of the first resurrection, but will be "purged" through Satan's torments. (An extended baptism of fire? see my thoughts on the LDSFF if you still hang out there).
I am fairly certain that only C&Ers will be resurrecting in the first resurrection. All others will be at the last resurrection or the final judgement so that they can have as much time and opportunity to qualify for the first resurrection and Celestial Glory.
Quote:There are those who die LIVING a celestial law - members of the Church of the Firstborn, recipients of C&E who do NOT commit grievous sin. These are not subject to the buffetings of Satan at all but enter immediately into "the Lord's rest". They are twinkled. But again, they still suffer or rejoice for their actions, like all of us do, the natural consequences of both the good and the bad.
Nephi cried,
Quote:17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great agoodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O bwretched man that I am! Yea, my heart csorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.
18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily abeset me.
19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have atrusted.
Quote:Those who are living a TERRESTRIAL law includes those who received their C&E but then committed "grievous sin" (but NOT shed innocent blood or deny the Holy Ghost) and also church members who have NOT received their C&E but have lived a terrestrial law, and also those who had not the opportunity to receive the fullness of the gospel in mortality who accept it in the next life.
The criteria for the Kingdoms is this:- Telestial - Nothing, your already there.
- Terrestrial - Gain a testimony of Christ but are not valiant in that testimony to obtaining the crown. Start the path, but do not finish it.
- Celestial - Gain a testimony of Christ and remain valiant to that testimony unto obtaining the promise/C&E.
It is that simple. The scriptures just make is sound confusing. Elliaison has a great power point going through the scriptures showing this. I'll see if it can be made available.
Quote:All of these, I believe, will suffer the torments of hell between their death and the first resurrection. I do not think the first resurection is a singular event. Possibly it might be occuring throughout the millenium.
Yes, until the final judgement after everyone who will be exalted has come forth in the first resurrection.
Quote:I believe that if you are purged and then resurected at any time before the end of the millenium, this qualifies for "First resurrection". I have no basis for this other than my own insights and thoughts.
I am limited for time and so won't go looking for scriptures to back this up, but your are correct.
Quote:Then of course the 2nd resurection is after the millenium for those that lived a telestial law. Not sure if SOPs will be briefly resurected at this time to be judged of God or not. I believe so, but am not sure. hmmm, I would add that the Terrestrial are resurrected at that time too. The SOPs are unique but I can't remember how/why.
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #983 is a reply to message #981] |
Fri, 24 August 2012 19:30 |
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Denryu
Messages: 88
Registered: July 2012
Location: American Fork
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Member |
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Amonhi,
Thank you for the extensive responses. You have given me much to feast upon.
I will tell you why I believe terrestrials will also take part in the first ressurrection - simply because the world will be in a terrestrial state of paradise. Only the telestial will have lived unworthily to participate. I have felt (though possibly incorrectly) that terrestrial people will still be advancing and obtaining celestial status during the millenium, and that those who have died living a terrestrial law will therefore qualify to work during this final period.
And there are problems with the idea. You are probably right, what you say makes sense. And as you say, as a non-C&E person I am left with theories and guesswork (still aided by the spirit) but certainly things that you have more direct access to.
And of course, I cannot and will not rely on you for borrowed light. I thank you VERY much for the extensive responses and what you have shared. Thank you als for your great posts on LDSFF that, over time, got me to this site.
Libertas optimas rarem, nunquam servili sub nexu.
"There is no gift like Liberty, therefore never live under slavery."
[Updated on: Fri, 24 August 2012 19:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #989 is a reply to message #983] |
Sat, 25 August 2012 17:52 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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When I contemplate a millennium of peace where people are 'resurrected' in a particular order, things get very confusing to me. If the final judgement is after the 1000 years of peace, and after the 'short period of war', then what is left for judgement day? If everyone has already received their eternal bodies (Celestial, Terrestrial, etc) then why have a war at the end? What do we fight over? What does the Final judgement mean if everyone is already consigned to their kingdoms?
To me, things make a lot more sense if the last two thousand years of this earth are used to give everyone who needs it one last mortal experience, followed by the final judgement. Yes, this had been discussed at length elsewhere, but as there is this disagreement about who will be 'resurrected' during the Millennium, I felt the need to chime in.
- Dragon
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #994 is a reply to message #971] |
Sun, 26 August 2012 03:42 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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I have been contemplating what it is people would have to do to atone for their sins, why the telestials need a Redeemer, and why those of the Celestial Kingdom do not. Here is what I have found.
Christ said if we do not repent, we must suffer, even as He suffered. What was it Christ suffered? He suffered the pain and agony of every victim of every sin. How was He able to endure this? Physically, He is the Son of God, meaning He obtained power over His physical body to have His Spirit remain in His body, or release it at will. Spiritually, He had progressed to a point He had the capacity to endure such anguish without being destroyed.
Those living under a Telestial law do not have the mental or spiritual fortitude to suffer for their sins without being destroyed. That is to say, any progress they have made would be undone by facing the consequences of their sins, particularly because they had chosen the desire to do evil over the desire to good. Hence, they MUST have a redeemer to pay for their sins to allow them to keep progressing.
Those living a Celestial law, or those who have had their Calling and Election Made Sure, have progressed to a point where the desire to do evil is gone, and it is their goal to do good continually. Temptations still apply, and sometimes they do still falter. When this happens, they must suffer as Christ did, which is to say, they must suffer through all the consequences of their sins. If they lose their temper one time, their punishment is to feel how each and every person felt when they did it, and all the negative consequences of that one act. If the anger is a habit, the frequency is increased, as well as the severity of the long term effects on others. Truly, it would be hell to endure such things over and over until every direct and indirect victim or resulting reduction of happiness has been endured.
What then does murder do to the soul? If someone who is living a Terestrial law, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, commits murder, they should likewise be killed if you believe in reincarnation. This allows the soul to return to the spirit world before the stain of murder soaks too deeply into their soul. If they repent, the atonement will cover the consequences.
If someone does not or cannot repent of murder, the negative ramifications upon the person killed, their family, friends, posterity (or lack thereof) must fall upon the murder. This is a consequence which the scriptures tell us not only undoes all the progress made, but turns the murderer against God. If a person refuses to face the consequences of their actions, and does not or cannot repent and use the atoning sacrifice, the sin soaks into the soul, causing the sin to be acceptable, and most likely repeated.
This idea also reminds me of what should happen to someone who hurts a little child. Imagine the long lasting consequences of causing a small child anguish which will take their entire life or longer to overcome! Then imagine not only the consequences to that one person, but to every person they come in contact with who is affected by their depression or other mental illness! Now extend that to every person all of those people affect as a consequence of the negative influence which the mentally ill adult survivor of child abuse has inflicted. There is no end to this multiplicity of negativity, almost a bad as committing murder.
As this is an issue near and feared to my heart, I ask you wise and inspired friends, who pays for the sins of a child thus affected? If a child is abused, sins may develop as a direct consequence. How much of that sin is upon the head of the child when they grow up? How much of it is upon the head of the one who twisted the child's mind into believing such sins were necessary for survival? I believe by the sheer law of averages someone reading this post has endured such things and knows of which I speak. Among other things, I have met people who have physically injured themselves or attempted suicide as a direct result of some abuse experienced in their childhood. There are a multitude of other behaviors which I have observed or heard tale of. Can these people really take all of the blame for these things? I know not the answer, and perhaps such answers are known only to God.
- Dragon
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #1258 is a reply to message #1193] |
Fri, 12 October 2012 20:50 |
amh
Messages: 16
Registered: October 2012
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Junior Member |
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5 But behold, verily I say unto you, that there are many who have been ordained among you, whom I have called but few of them are chosen.
6 They who are not chosen have sinned a very grievous sin, in that they are walking in darkness at noon-day. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 95)
Looks like a grievous sin is just a chosen person (C&E) not walking in the light they've been given. Not following the spirit that quickens them.
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| Re: Repentance before vs. after Calling and Election [message #1565 is a reply to message #1564] |
Mon, 10 December 2012 17:41 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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Denryu wrote on Mon, 10 December 2012 17:03I am glad that I was referred to this thread due to some questions posed by a new member.
What a difference a few months make - I understand much more clearly some things I was struggling with a few months ago.
Thanks Jules, for linking back to this topic!
Awesome!!! You are welcome! I read through the threads I posted before I sent them to that new member, and I felt the same way! I couldn't believe how much my understanding has grown and changed since I posted on those (and this) thread. It's so awesome to be able to teach each other and learn from one another, and to have the spirit witness new truths to us!
~Jules
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