Home » Discuss Elliaison Books and Articles » The Unspeakable Gift of the Holy Ghost. » To Be or Not To be, That IS the Question... (Discuss points related to this chapter.)
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| Re: To Be or Not To be, That IS the Question... [message #85 is a reply to message #77] |
Wed, 30 June 2010 17:05   |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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WOW, That was a bold statement by both of you! It seems hard to accept and even then to declare that we are prophets. It's like walking on Holy Ground.
Based on the information in this chapter and my experiences and testimony, I must also conclude that I am a Prophet, Seer and Revelator.
It came to me as I was thinking about this, if all these things come through the Holy Ghost, then it almost seems that anyone who really receives the Holy Ghost is a Prophet, Seer and Revelator. Then I thought, We believe the 12 and first Presidency as prophets, Seers and Revelators. That is almost like saying that you believe they have the Holy Ghost.
But we "sustain" them as Prophets, Seers and Revelators. I looked up "Sustain" in the scriptures and the only applicable references I found were:
Quote:D&C 134:5
5 We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.
Quote:A of F 1: 12
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
This is interesting to me because the word "Sustain" is used to describe our proper relationship with the government leaders and the law. Then I realized that the priesthood if the government of God and the priesthood leaders are like political leaders in Gods government.
What does this mean to me?
Well, I don't agree with my political leaders or the law in some instances. Some of my leaders, (Church leaders and government leaders) are Democratic and some are Republican. I don't have to agree with them in their decisions in political government and yet I can still sustain them in their offices. I then don't have to agree with the spiritual government/priesthood leaders yet I can still sustain them. This changes my perception of priesthood leaders and my duty to them.
My last thought is that I have been told that I can't receive revelation that applies to the whole church or the world or outside my stewardship. Only the prophet can. I know this can't be true, because I have had revelations regarding the future of the Church and America and a few about the world. There are many other people that have had revelations regarding the church, America and other things outside their stewardship.
I think that if we ask, seek and knock, God will show us as promised in the scriptures. Even if it is outside our jurisdiction. Can anyone shed some light on this?
~ Seeker
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| Re: To Be or Not To be, That IS the Question... [message #115 is a reply to message #105] |
Tue, 06 July 2010 10:09 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Quote:If you then mistakenly believe you should call up your Elders Quorum President and demand the change be effected, you have overstepped your stewardship. - Drangon
This makes sense to me! When I was in the MTC, our mission president was speaking to our district of 12 male/female missionaries and informed us that one of us would be called to be the district leader. Right then, the spirit informed me that I would be called as the district leader. It was clear and certain. I thought to myself, hmmm, ok, we'll see. Later we held a meeting and I was called to be the district leader. I wasn't about to go tell anyone that they should make me the leader. I figured that if God was in control, I didn't need to do anything.
Another experience I had was also as a missionary. My companion and I were asked to give a lady visiting her family from America blessing. She requested that we come over to her families house after church. As we were walking over to her house, the spirit told me I would be giving the blessing and some minor details like that she had cancer. When the time came to give the blessing, we asked the woman who she would like to anoint and who should bless. She requested that my companion anoint and that I bless. It was a very powerful experience in which her "faith made her whole".
In either case, I could have seen fit to make the spirits promise come true, but I didn't feel the need.
This surprisingly reminds me of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was continually trying to make the promised blessings fulfilled with the arm of flesh and the result was that he didn't get his physical birthright, he bowed down to his brother and served his brother instead of his brother serving him and brought upon himself terrible consequences until he repented and stopped trying to force the blessings God had in store.
So I think the point is that we can receive revelation but not make the decisions for leaders because it isn't our position. What about doctrine?
- Can we receive unknown doctrine that is true but not currently accepted by the church?
- Can we share that doctrine?
- Are there examples of this happening?
~ Seeker
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| Re: To Be or Not To be, That IS the Question... [message #123 is a reply to message #115] |
Sat, 10 July 2010 07:44 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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The first thing which comes to mind is to look to the past. I have heard many people who have explained the church's position on Blacks and the Priesthood prior to 1978. There were justifications and explanations and people who swore it would never change. I have yet to hear of a single example of a person who knew Blacks would receive the Priesthood before it was declared thus by President Kimball. I am willing to wager such account do exist, but they are not advertised by the church and certainly not taught about in Sunday School.
There are some areas where the church's official stance has been in flux for the last decade or two. They took a firm stance against Gay Marriage with the Proclamation on the Family. At the same time, they have eliminated their policy of simply encouraging gay men to marry women and hope the problem goes away. The church has also stated gay members are not committing a sin by having gay feelings or in some cases, even dating. They commit a sin only when they fornicate or commit adultery.
None of the changes above have been done publicly. They have been directions given to Bishops and some Bishops have chosen to ignore the changes. I know of these changes only because of Bishops I have had who stated these changes and members who benefited from them. The difficulty here is two fold. The Bishops' manual states that Bishops should follow the Spirit in their administration and council, particularly when a doctrine is unclear in a particular situation. Also, there is a strong Mormon Culture which is resistant to change and Bishops have varying degrees of Spiritual connection, just like the rest of the church.
On the other hand, there were many revelations given to Joseph Smith only because he asked about them, usually at the behest of a friend. Most particular of note is the Word of Wisdom, received because his wife felt it was wrong for men of God to make such a mess chewing tobacco.
It just occurred to me to point out the three levels of church beliefs:
1. Official Church Doctrine
2. Church Policies and Procedures
3. Mormon Cultural Beliefs
Often the three are not separated in the minds of the members. It is easy to find church Policies and/or Procedures which contradict Mormon Cultural Beliefs, such as the false belief the church supports a particular party more than any other.
I'm going to cut it off here and await a response, or else I will end up writing a book right here on the subject.
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: To Be or Not To be, That IS the Question... [message #129 is a reply to message #123] |
Wed, 14 July 2010 21:03 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Quote:I am willing to wager such account do exist, but they are not advertised by the church and certainly not taught about in Sunday School. - Dragon
Most certainly correct!
Quote:They commit a sin only when they fornicate or commit adultery.
Correct, from my research. The problem is that they are not permitted to marry or have sex inside marriage. So they can feel and think all they want but do something about it and they are punished. This also entirely neglects the thoughts of the heart.
Quote:The Bishops' manual states that Bishops should follow the Spirit in their administration and council, particularly when a doctrine is unclear in a particular situation. Also, there is a strong Mormon Culture which is resistant to change and Bishops have varying degrees of Spiritual connection, just like the rest of the church.
Yep, fully agree.
Quote:1. Official Church Doctrine
2. Church Policies and Procedures
3. Mormon Cultural Beliefs
I might add:
4. True Beliefs inspired by the spirit which are not supported by any of the above 1-3 points. (But I can understand that you didn't include this because you said, "the three levels of church beliefs:" and this is not a level of Church belief or it would fall under the above 1-3.
On that note, The revealed Doctrine of heavenly mother is a perfect example for this discussion. Can anyone tell us the details of this revelation including 1)Who revealed it, 2)How it was revealed to the world and 3)The membership's initial response?
Love and peace,
Amonhi
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| Re: To Be or Not To be, That IS the Question... [message #146 is a reply to message #131] |
Tue, 27 July 2010 16:27 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Heavenly Mother Revealed to the world...
It almost seems mysterious that such a major doctrine cannot be linked back to a major recorded revelation from a prophet. The reason is because it was not a prophet that revealed the doctrine to the church membership in general. And The doctrine has been known throughout the world already but was lost to the Christian world. So the Revelation of Heavenly Mother was really only a revelation to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it's members. Most Christians today still have not had that revelation. And those religions that had it before us did not need to have it revealed again, they already knew.
This doctrine was revealed to the church by a Prophetess. And rightly so as it was a revelation about our Heavenly Mother, who more perfect to reveal our Heavenly Mother to the Church than a Woman...
The doctrine of "Heavenly Mother" was revealed to the people by the Prophetess Eliza R. Snow who wrote a poem called, "Invocation or the Eternal and Father Mother". This poem was a prayer to both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Sometime after completing the poem, she published it in the prominent LDS newspaper thereby revealing the doctrine to the church.
Some men of the church were upset and requested of Brigham Young that he correct and keep his wife in Check to which he responded, (going from memory, something like), "Who am I to silence the Prophetess".
Thus the doctrine of Heavenly Mother was revealed to the church. Her poem became famous and was set to music and today missionaries cringe around the world whenever we sing her hymn, "O My Father". Which is incorrectly named because the prayer was not a prayer to only her Heavenly Father, but also to her Heavenly Mother. (Which is why she published it under the name, "Invocation or Eternal Father and Mother".
This is a perfect example of Truth that became doctrine and truth that didn't. It is Currently accepted doctrine that we have a Heavenly Mother. It is not currently accepted doctrine that we pray to our Heavenly Mother. It has been specifically formally declared as Church doctrine/stance that we DO NOT pray to our Heavenly Mother. (Was the prophetess Elisa wrong to do so?)
Regardless, there has been no new revelation to the church regarding Her since, (that I am aware of). Only a rehashing what Eliza revealed.
The points to make here are:- Truth does not always come from our line of church Authorities.
- Truth is truth no matter who gives it.
- Truth is truth no matter who accepts it or believes it.
In addition, we can make a number of conclusions based on the various doctrines which have been officially taught as Church Doctrine in the early church and which are now not accepted as doctrine for example, the Adam-God Doctrine which is now called the Adam-God Theory.
A more commonly know example is the Blacks and the Priesthood in which there was a lot of taking back doctrines previously accepted and taught over the pulpit. Bruce R. McConkie addressed this because he had a lot to take back personally,
Quote:"There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren that we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June 1978. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles." - Elder Bruce R. McConkie
http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=11017
The points this makes clear are the inverse of the above points:- What our authorities or church currently teaches as Doctrine is not always true and may change in the future.
- "Who" or what "position in Authority" gives the doctrine does not determine its alignment with Truth.
- "Who" or what "position in Authority" believes a doctrine has no bearing on the Truthfulness of the doctrine.
It is apparent that we cannot rely on Church Doctrine, Church Leadership or existing church systems to infallibly provide us with Eternal Truth. As McConkie pointed out, even prophets, seers and Revelators such as himself, Brigham Young and George Q. Cannon can and have been wrong. If them, then why not our current Prophet, President Monson, or any other prophet, seer or Revelator?
If we put our trust in them, then they will eventually fail us at some point & we will inevitably be lead astray to some degree, great or small.
For those who have built their lives and faith on the shoulders of their leaders, these comments create fear and shake the foundations of their faith. The reason is because our leaders and church doctrines are not the rock or sure foundation on which if we build we will never fall as promised in the scriptures.
The conclusions we must come to as far as doctrine is concerned are:- Doctrine is what is believed and accepted by the church officially and in general.
- Doctrine, (Current/Past/Future Church Doctrine), is not always true.
- Truth is True and may or may not be doctrine.
- Truth can be revealed through any person, (in or out of the church).
- Doctrine can only come from Church Lines of Leadership specifically the Prophet and President of the Church.
This would mean that Truth like the existence of Heavenly Mother can be revealed by anyone. But it doesn't become "Doctrine" until it is accepted by the President of the Church and taught by the church as "Official Church Doctrine".
Neither you, nor I have the authority to make any truth or revelation a Doctrine of the Church. Only one man on earth is authorized to "Reveal Doctrine" to the Church and world. But anyone that God sees fit to "Reveal Truth" to has the ability to Reveal Truth to the World and as a subsection of the world, the Church. But the Church doesn't have to accept Truth as Doctrine. And in many cases it doesn't. But again, that doesn't make the Truth not true.
Love and peace,
Amonhi
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| Re: To Be or Not To be, That IS the Question... [message #2199 is a reply to message #34] |
Sat, 09 February 2013 18:45 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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Regarding Heavenly Mother - I always thought She was first revealed here:
Quote: 14 And the Gods said: Let us make an help meet for the man, for it is not good that the man should be alone, therefore we will form an help meet for him.
15 And the Gods caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and they took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof;
16 And of the rib which the Gods had taken from man, formed they a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Since Adam was formed in the image of God, Eve have been too......
 
~Jules
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| Re: To Be or Not To be, That IS the Question... [message #2200 is a reply to message #34] |
Sat, 09 February 2013 18:56 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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I love this chapter and the example of the prophets in the camp! We may not have the authority to act as prophets on behalf of the LDS church, but if we are given the spirit of prophecy, then clearly we are to prophecy as Eldad and Medad prophesied in the camp, and as Amos was told to prophecy to the people of Israel! I have had the spirit of prophecy given to me and have had the opportunity to prophecy at times too - which makes even me (one of the weak and simple ones), a prophet[ess]!
~Jules
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