Home » Discuss Elliaison Books and Articles » The Unspeakable Gift of the Holy Ghost. » Revelation, prophecy and the Fulness of the Gospel (Discuss points related to this chapter.)
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| Re: Revelation, prophecy and the Fulness of the Gospel [message #62 is a reply to message #57] |
Sun, 27 June 2010 07:40   |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Their are some things in the list that I don't agree with as well. For example, "Testimony of Jesus Comes by the Witness of the Power of the Holy Ghost before baptism."
Well, sure in a perfect world. But there are many people that get baptized without a testimony of Jesus that later receive the testimony. This often happens in little children baptized at 8 years who did it because of peer and parental pressure or various other reasons like a boyfriend trying to please a Mormon girl.
Details, I know. But important to realize that we don't all progress in a perfect order.
Excellent point about the Holy Ghost speaking loudly and ignoring it when it is loud makes it so much more easily ignored when it is later only a whisper. Wow, very good post, thanks.
~ Seeker
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| Re: Revelation, prophecy and the Fulness of the Gospel [message #69 is a reply to message #57] |
Sun, 27 June 2010 10:52 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Quote:The list of levels of testimony and knowledge about Jesus Christ bothers me. The first part says all about the church and how you should have this before you get baptized, but then it goes down and says that you're a prophet and you prophesy. - Fairy and Dragon
Regarding Prophet and Prophecy part - I will attempt to provide my thoughts on this in this thread: http:// www.elliaison.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=32&goto=6 8&rid=3&S=3e5394a3ae90c451cc70f3dc6975c1d1#msg_68
Regarding The list of levels of testimony and knowledge:
This list is patterned after the requirements for the 3 kingdoms of Glory. These requirements are given cryptically in D&C 76. (Elliaison has more detail that can be provided regarding these criteria which I will try to get and open a thread in the Deep Doctrine Forum.) They are as follows:
- Telestial - Lowest Kingdom - Those here have No Revelation regarding Christ and so they do not have a Testimony of Christ from the spirit. But they do have various revelations from the Holy Ghost who governs here. With the revelations come prophecies and understanding. This is the power of the Holy Ghost to influence periodically. Are they prophets, Yes. Are they prophets of Jesus Christ? No. I believe that to say they have, "no Gift" is incorrect.
- Terrestrial - Middle Kingdom - Receive a Testimony of Christ from the spirit. And have the oppertunity for the spirit to be with them always because they accepted it fully. The Millennial Earth is a Terrestrial kingdom and there will be many from other churches and religious and non-religious groups that are part of that kingdom. Having a testimony of Christ makes all the difference because you now have knowledge that enables your progression beyond that available to those who do not know the Christ.
- Celestial - Highest Kingdom - Receive the Knowledge of Christ. And have the oppertunity for Christ to be with them always because they accepted him fully. They are now influenced in part by God. They know God and Jesus whom he has sent. If you know the one, then you know the other.
Quote:The prerequisite to baptism is a testimony of Jesus. This is also a prerequisite to receiving the gift of the holy ghost. These steps seem to show these are one and the same. - Fairy
Bingo! You are correct. I expect this will be discussed in the other thread, (mentioned above), as well.
Quote:Someone who has felt in their heart a witness of the truth of another person's words has a testimony of Jesus, but is far from prepared to prophesy about it. - Fairy
All truth comes from God through the Holy Ghost. This includes secular truth such as we find in science and the inspirations of invention. A testimony of Christ is not required for revelation from the Holy Ghost. Many people experience revelation from the Holy Ghost but don't know that they are experiencing it. They simply call it by other names, but it is the same experience. When they receive a witness, they are prepared to prophecy regarding it.
This is so for 2 reasons:
- The same process of receiving revelation from the spirit is the same process by which we prophecy. If you can receive revelation from the Holy Ghost, then you can prophecy by that same spirit.
- The revelation contains the seed of prophecy. For example, with the revelation of Airplanes comes the prophecy that people everywhere will fly from place to place. With the invention of the atom bomb come various prophecies. Non of which require a testimony of Jesus Christ.
People will learn all sorts of knowledge, just as we did in our pre-mortal lives. But only certain knowledge will progress us from one kingdom to the next. People who are in the lower kingdoms will continue to learn and progress, but they will not learn those things pertaining to a new kingdom without being part of that kingdom.
Although a person who has a testimony of Christ has the spirit of prophecy, a person doesn't need to have a testimony of Christ to have the spirit of prophecy. The Testimony of Christ is one of the many prophecies/revelations we can receive from the Holy Ghost.
That is because you cannot receive a testimony of Christ without experiencing the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of prophecy. You can't receive any revelation in any form without having the spirit of prophecy which is the Holy Ghost.
Remember that the Holy Ghost governs the Telestial or lowest degree of glory. So people in this Telestial world will all be influenced by the Holy Ghost and progress because if that influence.
Last thought: I agree with Philip, good point regarding not listening to the Holy Ghost makes it get quieter. And on the other side, listening to the Holy Ghost makes it get louder and more obvious.
[Updated on: Sun, 27 June 2010 11:23] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Revelation, prophecy and the Fulness of the Gospel [message #70 is a reply to message #62] |
Sun, 27 June 2010 11:08 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Quote:Well, sure in a perfect world. But there are many people that get baptized without a testimony of Jesus that later receive the testimony. This often happens in little children baptized at 8 years who did it because of peer and parental pressure or various other reasons like a boyfriend trying to please a Mormon girl. - Philip If a person is baptized and it is not sealed by the holy spirit of promise, (D&C 132:7), which must seal everything for it to be valid, then have they received the ordinance?
Technically speaking, Yes and No. Yes, they have received the physical ordinance and will not have to receive it again. No, the spiritual baptism has no effect and so they have not receive the spiritual ordinance.
When we gain a testimony, then the spiritual ordinance is done regardless of the physical ordinance. Some prior to physical baptism and some after physical baptism. They may even be "baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost" and "know it not" like some of the Lamanites were... (3 Ne. 9:20)
The spiritual ordinance is what has sway in the eternal worlds, not the physical ordinance which is merely an outward sign of an inward conversion.
In this way, God accepts/rejects every ordinance, covenant, oath, obligation, etc. Although we can lie to ourselves and our leaders, we cannot lie to God who requires every step to be performed spiritually.
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| Re: Revelation, prophecy and the Fulness of the Gospel [message #1062 is a reply to message #120] |
Sun, 02 September 2012 21:16 |
Eric
Messages: 3
Registered: August 2012
Location: United States
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Junior Member |
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May I as a newbie here suggest a thought? If we define "the testimony of Jesus" as being the witness one receives when they are baptized by fire and born again and "a testimony of Jesus" as that testimony received by anyone that the Spirit happens to touch and confirm the truth of Him to - I think that might help in the discussion.
I think that is what Amonhi is getting at indirectly. It is possible that most of you maybe have forgotten that your definition of gaining a testimony is a bit different than many of us milk drinkers. We get struck by one of Bruce R. McConkies "lightning bolts" and gain a testimony. That testimony is simply a simple witness, but not "the testimony of Jesus" that Amonhi is referring to. That "the testimony of Jesus" makes you a prophet. Period you don't have any choice in the matter.
Joseph Smith taught "According to John, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" and if you have "the spirit of prophecy, and that constitutes a prophet." (TJPS p. 269)
For example, I have "a testimony of Jesus" but I have not received "the testimony of Jesus" as of yet. Because of this I cannot truly bear witness of Him no matter how prepared or unprepared I may feel. I can get up in fast and testimony meeting and bear a "testimony" but it is not possible for me to do any more than that. However, those of you in this forum who have been born again or received their CE are capable of doing so since you by your nature have "THE testimony of Jesus". To bear witness well, you cannot do so without being a prophet. Yes, as noted in another post in this book review section, it may sound kind of strange to think that about yourself that you are a prophet - but it is nonetheless true.
"Rev. 19:10" And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
[Updated on: Mon, 03 September 2012 08:30] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Revelation, prophecy and the Fulness of the Gospel [message #1072 is a reply to message #1062] |
Sun, 09 September 2012 09:24 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Perhaps, but, keep in mind that the while the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy which constitutes a prophet, the sure knowledge of Christ by first hand experience, is the "more sure word of prophecy" and constitutes a special witness.
~ Seeker
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