Home » Discuss Elliaison Books and Articles » The Unspeakable Gift of the Holy Ghost. » Receiving the Holy Ghost (Discuss points related to this chapter.)
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| Re: Receiving the Holy Ghost [message #55 is a reply to message #31] |
Thu, 24 June 2010 20:33   |
fairy
Messages: 17
Registered: June 2010
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Junior Member |
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There is a benefit to 'having the gift on the shelf'. While this certainly does not give nearly the same benefit as constantly using it, discussions with excommunicated members or former members can demonstrate what happens when the gift is taken away. Often when someone is being excommunicated, it is partly because they have been ignoring the gift. Once it is completely taken away, they still notice a difference.
There is an implication here that ministers of other religions are also prophets, or charlatans. If they truly teach what they know through the Spirit, they are prophets. If they preach more than what the Spirit has taught them, they are deceiving themselves and those who believe in them.
We shouldn't follow blindly what others have revealed. We must get our own revelations. Too often we rely on our Bishop, Stake President, or even our spouse for guidance in spiritual things. It is often said the woman brings religion into the home. If that is the case, then religion doesn't make it into the heart.
Fairy and Dragon
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| Re: Receiving the Holy Ghost [message #58 is a reply to message #31] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 20:56 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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I really liked the point that even though we are commanded to receive the Holy Ghost, we often times don't. OR we will sometimes receive the gift and put it on the shelf. I thought, Yeah, It's like the scriptures which stay on the shelf until Sunday comes and we take it with us to church for a short 3 hours. Then we use them in 1 class for 45 minutes, take them home and put them back on the shelf. Like the gift of the Holy Ghost. Have we received it? How do we know?
I think the first point for how we know is given by Joseph Smith,
"No man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations. The Holy Ghost is a revelator." Joseph Smith
Then making the point that by having revelations and sharing them, we are "Revelators". We know the prophet and apostles are revelators. What is the difference between them and us when we have the Holy Ghost?
~ Seeker
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| Re: Receiving the Holy Ghost [message #59 is a reply to message #31] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 21:01 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Quote:McConkie also said,
"Here is a statement from Joseph Smith:
"Salvation cannot come without revelation [and I am not now speaking about the revelation that gave the dispensation in which we live--I am speaking of personal revelation to individuals]; it is vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has a testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this." (Teachings, p. 160.)
We are entitled to revelation. Personal revelation is essential to our salvation." - Doctrines of the Restoration, Chapter 8
I hope that it is ok to quote the book.... This is new stuff! We can't be saved without personal revelation? What is this talking about? I can go through every ordinance and follow the process of the church without personal revelation. Why won't this save me?
And what about the parts that say, That we we cannot be ministers of Jesus Christ without being prophets? I servers a mission and was a minister of Jesus Christ. But I didn't feel like a prophet? If the prophet of the Church, Monson, is a prophet like the missionaries, doesn't that degrade him and make like of his calling?
~ Seeker
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| Re: Receiving the Holy Ghost [message #60 is a reply to message #31] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 21:07 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Quote:"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. ...I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem..." - (Brigham Young, presented in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853, found in Journal of Discourses, 1:312)
Wait!?!, how do we reconcile this quote with the common teaching, "Follow the prophet". I think that so many of us follow the prophet and know that if he did anything wrong that the Lord would remove him. And now Brigham Young says that we can't ever be Gods by following the prophet and putting our trust and faith in him to lead us correctly? Doesn't this seem to be inconsistent with current church doctrine?
~ Seeker
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| Re: Receiving the Holy Ghost [message #63 is a reply to message #55] |
Sun, 27 June 2010 07:50 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Quote:There is an implication here that ministers of other religions are also prophets, or charlatans. - fairy/Dragon
I noticed that too. If the testimony of Christ is really the spirit of prophecy as Joseph Smith said, and we receive a testimony before being baptized members, then doesn't that mean that non-members could be prophets too?
Good points all! I really liked the comment about bringing religion into the home meaning that it isn't in the heart.
~ Seeker
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| Re: Receiving the Holy Ghost [message #66 is a reply to message #55] |
Sun, 27 June 2010 09:32 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Quote:There is an implication here that ministers of other religions are also prophets, or charlatans. If they truly teach what they know through the Spirit, they are prophets. - fairy/Dragon
Yes, that is correct. Because the Holy Ghost is what gives people the testimony of Christ before they are baptized as members of the church. The scriptures teach,
Quote:And these signs shall follow them that believe--in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;
25 And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth. - Morm. 9:24
The criteria for all these signs is not the priesthood nor church membership. The criteria is belief in the name of Christ.
As such, there are many who belong to non-LDS churches who experience true signs. They can cast out devils, heal the sick by the laying on of hands, speak in tongues and experience every other gift of the believers.
One example of this and how the Apostles were corrected by Christ regarding this doctrine is given as follows:
Quote:And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part. - Mark9:38-40
Even though the man didn't "follow" the same group the apostles were part of, he was casting out devils in Christ's name. Christ was fine with it and told his apostles NOT to forbid him because he was doing good. I say, "If God gave his sanction by casting out the devil, let all hold their tongue because a nation divided will fall. Satan cannot cast out Satan."
Joseph Smith said the following, Italics added:
Quote:No matter who believeth, these signs, such as healing the sick, casting our devils, etc., should follow all that believe, whether male or female. He asked the (Relief) Society if they could not see by this sweeping promise, that wherein they are ordained, if it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority, which is conferred on them; and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let everything roll on...Respecting females administering for the healing of the sick he further remarked, there could be no evil in it, if God gave His sanction by healing; that there could be no more sin in any female laying hands on and praying for the sick, than in wetting the face with water; it is no sin for anybody to administer that has faith, or if the sick have faith to be healed by their administration. - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839-42, p.224
I know and have heard of many miracles being done outside the LDS Church by true believers of Christ. It happens all the time.
But, all these miracles are done by the Holy Ghost. Joseph Smith pointed out,
Quote:Gifts of the Spirit - We believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost being enjoyed now, as much as it was in the Apostles' days; we believe that it [the gift of the Holy Ghost] is necessary to make and to organize the Priesthood, that no man can be called to fill any office in the ministry without it; we also believe in prophecy, in tongues, in visions, and in revelations, in gifts, and in healings; and that these things cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.243
If a person cannot do these things without the "GIFT" of the Holy Ghost, and they are not members of the church, then how did they get the GIFT?
[Updated on: Sun, 27 June 2010 09:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Receiving the Holy Ghost [message #67 is a reply to message #60] |
Sun, 27 June 2010 09:40 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Quote:Wait!?!, how do we reconcile this quote with the common teaching, "Follow the prophet". - Philip
Follow the prophet means to follow his foot steps. Remember your primary songs? "Do as I'm doing, follow follow me..."
If you are doing what the prophet says but not what the prophet does, then you are not "Following the prophet" you are "obeying the prophet". To Follow the prophet you must do those things that made him a prophet. You can't follow the prophet without becoming a prophet yourself.
Is he infallible? No
When you are a prophet, are you infallible? No
A prophet is someone who has walked the path and can tell others how to do what they have done.
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