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Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » They that are Without the Law (Discuss Moroni 8:22)
Re: They that are Without the Law [message #333 is a reply to message #332] Thu, 05 May 2011 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Amonhi is currently offline  Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
Senior Member
Quote:
Your original quote was from the Book of Mormon. Can you provide evidence as to which law Mormon was referring to in his epistle?

Yes, he was refering to the lower law, the preparatory law, the law of Moses, the carnal law, the preparatory gospel, the Levitical law, etc... This lower law is the same from Adam to present. It is the only law that includes repentance, baptism forgiveness, atonement, Aaronic/Levitical priesthood, learning from ministering Angels (Instead of from God Directly), oh, and the law of carnal commandments (10 commandments+++...)

No other law includes these things. So if we are talking about repentance or baptism, we are talking about the lower law or Law of Moses.

Quote:
"For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing--" - Moroni 8:22


The words "Repent" and "baptism" are specific to Gods lower law. We don't repent from breaking the law of the land except when that law agrees with Gods lower law. Ann Frank did not need to repent for hiding from the Nazi soldiers. The Nazi soldiers obeyed the law of the land but needed to repent for breaking God's lower law.

The lower law & Aaronic priesthood and doctrines focuses on salvation from... sin and creating just men/women. The higher law or Mel. priesthood focuses on Perfecting the Just & Exaltation.

Quote:
Now we know that the Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ, as He was the one who gave the law to begin with. Why did He give it?

You are right, he gave it because they would not enter into Gods presence, just like you said, D&C 84:23-27. But what was given then and was called the Laws of Moses has been given to us today as part of the "restoration of all things". It is administered by the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood, teaches the lower law and the preparatory gospel including faith, repentance, baptism, forgiveness and the law of carnal commandments, (10 commandments plus every other rule/law given, ie. dance when you are 14, date at 16 1 set of earrings, etc...)

Quote:
Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb.


Notice the following:


  • The reason for giving the Law of Moses was, as you said, because the people would not enter into the presence of God.
  • The church members today have, for the most part, still not entered into God's presence.
  • We live the same law discribed in D&C 84 that was attributed to those who are cursed for not entering into God's presence.
  • This is a PREPARATORY law (& Gospel) given to prepare people to enter into God's presence.
  • This preparatory law and gospel includes faith, repentance, baptism, and the law of Carnal commandments.
  • The system is easy, break the carnal commandments and you need to repent. Breaking these commandments is a sin.
  • The surprising conclusion is, No Lower/preparatory law = No Law of Carnal Commandments to break = no sin to repent from, no need to be saved from the punishment of a broken law.


Quote:
Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment? - Alma 42:17


Paul told the Hebrews, let's move on from the principles of the lower law and it's gospel because once we have "been enlightened" these principles, (like repentance), do not apply because we can't be renewed to repentance.

Quote:
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And this will we do, if God permit.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God fresh, and put him to an open shame. - Heb. 6:1-6


"It is impossible for those who were once enlightened" to be "renewed again unto repentance" because repentance is part of the preparatory Gospel and law which, for these people, was fulfilled. They were prepared and cannot be prepared again or further. They prepared and performed and entered God's presence. Once in God's presence, the lower law which was to prepare us for his presence is fulfilled and no longer useful.

Although he isn't saying it directly, he is referring to a doctrine which says after fulfilling the lower law, Christ cannot atone for us and we must suffer death and hell for our own actions, D&C 132:26-27. And so repentance, forgiveness, baptism, etc become meaningless.

The principle/experience of "Love" keeps you in line rather than the fear of punishment associated with the lower law. That fear of punishment is/was required to keep the carnal man inline.

Quote:
Now, if there was no law given--if a man murdered he should die--would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?

And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin. - Alma 42:19-20


In the end, there is a "Final Repentance" after which no further repentance is required nor will it do you any good. At this point, the law has been fulfilled and you are no longer under the law. You have progressed beyond the law and have returned to the presence of God like Adam/Eve were originally except that you have gained knowledge and become like God knowing Good From Evil for yourself. Thus the plan of redemption is fulfilled.
 
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