Home » Discuss Elliaison Books and Articles » The Unspeakable Gift of the Holy Ghost. » All Those Who Believe (Discuss points related to this chapter.)
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| Re: All Those Who Believe [message #68 is a reply to message #39] |
Sun, 27 June 2010 10:02   |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Quote:There is an implication here that ministers of other religions are also prophets, or charlatans. If they truly teach what they know through the Spirit, they are prophets. - fairy/Dragon
Yes, that is correct. Because the Holy Ghost is what gives people the testimony of Christ before they are baptized as members of the church. The scriptures teach,
Quote:And these signs shall follow them that believe--in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;
25 And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth. - Morm. 9:24
The criteria for all these signs is not the priesthood nor church membership. The criteria is belief in the name of Christ.
As such, there are many who belong to non-LDS churches who experience true signs. They can cast out devils, heal the sick by the laying on of hands, speak in tongues and experience every other gift of the believers.
One example of this and how the Apostles were corrected by Christ regarding this doctrine is given as follows:
Quote:And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part. - Mark9:38-40
Even though the man didn't "follow" the same group the apostles were part of, he was casting out devils in Christ's name. Christ was fine with it and told his apostles NOT to forbid him because he was doing good. I say, "If God gave his sanction by casting out the devil, let all hold their tongue because a nation divided will fall. Satan cannot cast out Satan."
Joseph Smith said the following, Italics added:
Quote:No matter who believeth, these signs, such as healing the sick, casting our devils, etc., should follow all that believe, whether male or female. He asked the (Relief) Society if they could not see by this sweeping promise, that wherein they are ordained, if it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority, which is conferred on them; and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let everything roll on...Respecting females administering for the healing of the sick he further remarked, there could be no evil in it, if God gave His sanction by healing; that there could be no more sin in any female laying hands on and praying for the sick, than in wetting the face with water; it is no sin for anybody to administer that has faith, or if the sick have faith to be healed by their administration. - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839-42, p.224
I know and have heard of many miracles being done outside the LDS Church by true believers of Christ. It happens all the time.
But, all these miracles are done by the Holy Ghost. Joseph Smith pointed out,
Quote:Gifts of the Spirit - We believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost being enjoyed now, as much as it was in the Apostles' days; we believe that it [the gift of the Holy Ghost] is necessary to make and to organize the Priesthood, that no man can be called to fill any office in the ministry without it; we also believe in prophecy, in tongues, in visions, and in revelations, in gifts, and in healings; and that these things cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.243
If a person cannot do these things without the "GIFT" of the Holy Ghost, and they are not members of the church, then how did they get the GIFT?
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| Re: All Those Who Believe [message #71 is a reply to message #68] |
Mon, 28 June 2010 14:01 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Ok, so I'll share an experience I had while serving a mission that sheds shows the gifts of the spirit among non-LDS. This really surprised me because I though we, LDS had a patent on the spirit, meaning that God supported our church and none of the other Churches with the presences of the Holy Ghost and Gifts of the spirit... I learn otherwise...
I served briefly with an Elder from England who's father was a protestant, (baptist I think), minister. He had been also serving as a minister with his father. (Family business type of a thing.
He told me some of the amazing experiences he had prior to joining. Below are 2:
1 - A visiting dignitary from Africa was visiting their baptist church. after services, they held a private meeting with this dignitary where a few prominent people in the church were invited. At the close of the meeting, one of the sisters in the church was asked to give a "closing prayer". My companion was there. She said the entire prayer in some unknown dialect/tongue. The spirit was strong in their meeting. As soon as she closed the prayer, the dignitary thanked her and told the group that she had spoken the prayer in his native African language perfectly and without any discernible accent. My companion was surprised because he knew the lady and that she didn't know African anything.
2 - Since he was young, my companion would pray sincerely. At some point he felt prompted to pray in an unknown language, so he did. The words came easily and he knew what he was saying in his mind and heart but he didn't know the words he was using. Years later, while ministering with his father, he came across the missionaries that he had been warned about. He decided that he would prove them wrong. So he had them over and after many lengthy discussions and spiritual witnesses he accepted the missionaries message and joined the church. He said, "I had to, I knew it was true." His father and family had disowned him.
When I was serving with him, his father hadn't spoken to him for about 3-4 years. He was an awesome missionary! Converted through and through. He continued to experience this fluent prayer in an unknonw tongue whenever he wanted but he only did it in personal prayers.
While on his mission, (I think, but definitely after joining the church), he learned 2 new words that he hadn't heard spoken by anyone else before. "Jehovah" and "Elohim". He was shocked when he heard these words because he knew them, but with a slightly different pronunciation. He knew them because when he prayed in the unknown language, he always addressed his prayers to Elohim and closed in the name of Jehovah. (He said that the pronunciation was slightly different but that he was certain that they were the right names for whom he prayed and addressed his prayers. He later learned somethings that led him to believe that he is praying in Adamaic or the perfect tongue.
That is all I can reasonably share. If I can contact him again, I will ask him to join and share his own stories.
I spoke with many protestants and found that they have experienced the spirit and can in most cases recognize it's presence. I came to understand that many of them were converted to their churches when the holy Ghost confirmed some truth to them as taught by their church. They took the experiences to mean that their church was true. I can't fault them for this because we do the same thing using the logic that if they gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon, then Joseph Smith who translated it must be a prophet of God and the Church must be true. (I understand now that this is really poor logic, but it made sense to me at the time, just as their investigator logic says, "You feel the spirit tell you this principle is true and we teach it, so everything we teach must be true.")
Philip
~ Seeker
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| Re: All Those Who Believe [message #82 is a reply to message #39] |
Tue, 29 June 2010 21:26 |
fairy
Messages: 17
Registered: June 2010
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Junior Member |
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This section caused us to pause and reconsider the place of the Priesthood in our lives and in the Church of God. Many people believe through Mormon Culture, that blessings of healing or guidance can only be performed by the Priesthood, aka, the boys. When reflecting on how these blessings are actually performed, and how we receive the words to speak, it becomes clear all we do when performing a proper blessing, is to speak the words given us by the Holy Ghost. There is no doctrine which states only a Priesthood holder can hear the words of the Holy Ghost. Thus, anyone who can hear the words of the Holy Ghost can give a proper blessing. And if the blessings promised are received from God, who dares to speak evil of the manner in which it was performed?
Thus, what is the Priesthood left with to call its own if the power of healing is not exclusively contained within it? It is the power to administer the affairs of the church. It is the organization of the church itself whereby doctrines can be corrected by the proper authority. Futhermore, the structure of the Priesthood and the ordinance of the Priesthood blessing gives a great deal of confidence to those who would otherwise lack enough faith to command someone to be healed or rise from the dead. Imagine a 19 year old being told that if he has enough faith he can heal a sick person (without the Priesthood). Some could do it, but many would lack the faith. Now tell that same young man he has the Power and Authority to act in the name of God through the Priesthood, and it is something which he has seen done before. Give him an event to look back on where that authority was given to him. What greater confidence does he now have? Is there greater power to bless the sick? We don't really think so. But he has greater confidence and therefore greater faith to perform miracles which rely only on the faith of the receiver and to a lesser extent the faith of the one giving the blessing.
The Priesthood is a powerful gift which a man can hold. It is something we should seek out and embrace and understand. We don't mean to diminish by any means anyone's respect for the power and authority of the Priesthood. We merely ask others to consider as we have that Faith alone can give someone the power to speak by the Power of the Holy Ghost and miracles will follow all those who believe.
- Fairy and Dragon
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| Re: All Those Who Believe [message #83 is a reply to message #82] |
Tue, 29 June 2010 23:19 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Fairy and dragon, Your post was very good. I have come to the same conclusion. If a person were acting outside there "official calling" and someone were to question there authority, if they were acting under the direction of the Holy Ghost, then they could say that "The spirit granteth me authority".
This is why we can testify or teach people outside our "official ward jurisdictions" while on an air plane or bus. If the spirit says to do it, then you have the authority of God and the command of God. What more do you need.
No authority given from through man has any power without the Holy Ghost present. And without authority given through man, if the Holy Ghost is present, you have the power of God. The Holy Ghost will tell us all things which we should do. It seems that it is far more important to learn to recognize the Holy Ghost and follow its direction than I had previously thought.
It seems that the Holy Ghost was taught to me a a nice gift of comfort and a "Jimminy Cricket" conscience booster. But now I see that it is the main theme of the eternal gospel. The preparatory gospel focuses on the atonement and making us worthy of the Holy Ghost. Then the Holy Ghost takes us from there to...
This also makes the book, "The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" more clear. The Holy Ghost brings you to calling and election made sure, the church of the first born and every other blessing God has for us.
~ Seeker
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