Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » Current Church Doctrine » Knowledge enough to sin (When do we know enough to be accountable to knowledge?)
| Knowledge enough to sin [message #329] |
Tue, 03 May 2011 20:01  |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Quote:The knowledge required to sin is not just belief or cause to believe, as we have when someone tells us from the pulpit or we read it in the scriptures or hear the prophet tell us, it means real personal "knowledge". - Seeker
Quote:"And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?" - Alma 32:19
The prophet Alma told the people to believe on his words as if they were a seed and plant the seed and let it grow. If it grew to a happy plant it was a good seed. If it died, then it was a bad seed.
Clearly he did not require or expect the people to believe what he said just because he (The Prophet) said it. And he told them in the quote above that they were not accountable to the "knowledge" of what he said just because he said it. He simply said that they "only believeth, or only hath cause to believe" because he said it. He said acting against this believe or cause to believe is a transgression and not a sin.
What then is required for a person to truly and fulling have knowledge enough to be accountable?
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #335 is a reply to message #329] |
Fri, 06 May 2011 13:13  |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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This is a very interesting question, especially when you use the reference you gave in Alma as a starting point.
I have heard that when missionaries teach, investigators become accountable. This seems to mean that knowledge is gained by hearing the testimony of others.
I have also heard it said that if you have a testimony of the prophet or the church and you hear the prophet say it then you know God said it and it is right/wrong. Again this implies that knowledge is gained by hearing the testimony of others.
But here you show the prophet Alma telling the people that just because he said it doesn't make it true or mean they have knowledge. He even said,
Quote:"Now, as I said concerning faith--that it was not a perfect knowledge--even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words." Amla 32:26-27
He is telling us that even though he is a prophet speaking to us, we cannot know the surety of his words at first, unto perfection. Then he asks them to experiment on his words to see if they are right or not. Then he tells them how to conduct the experiment and says that if the words are good the we will say, "it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me." Alma 32:28
But it still isn't knowledge as Alma tells us:
Quote:"Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge. " Alma 32:29
Then he says it continues to grow until it sprouts and produces its fruit after its own likeness. (Like all fruit does.) When it produces its fruit you finally know what kind of seed it was that you planted.
Quote:"And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away." Alma 32:31-32
Some seeds are obvious like corn, but some seeds are like the wheat and the tares which can't be easily distinguished until they have matured. But you have to plant it and care for it until it produces the results to really know whether it is good or bad.
So, if someone says something to you, (gives you a seed), you don't really have knowledge until you plant the seed and it sprouts and you see what it is for yourself.
~ Seeker
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #495 is a reply to message #335] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 02:03 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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I agree Seeker, I believe that we can be "book-smart" about anything but not truly understand it enough to be accountable. Maybe "book-smart" isn't the best term to use, but it's one way of learning about something. My little boy knows that when he does certain things he will probably get in trouble. I catch him being sneaky and trying to manipulate me and get away with something he's been told 50 times not to do, that he continues to try to get away with. He knows that it's something I don't want him to do, but is he really "sinning"? I think that he's still "experimenting on the word" so-to-speak. He likely doesn't UNDERSTAND why it's wrong, and what better choices could replace that one, and what the potential consequences could be, etc. And I believe that even as adults, we do this all the time. I believe that there is a difference between "sin" and "transgression", and the difference is in the level of understanding. Adam transgressed when he ate the fruit, he didn't understand enough at that point for it to be counted as "sin".
Am I on the right track here?
~Jules
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #497 is a reply to message #495] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 11:47 |
Primary Teacher
Messages: 14
Registered: June 2010
Location: USA
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I agree. This is why I do not think it is bad to let the missionaries teach children and have them get baptized even when there is very little chance that the parents will continue to bring them to church. They are doing good to plant the seed. Someday, if the child chooses to nourish the seed, it will grow and then they will be accountable for the knowledge that they have.
~ a Primary Teacher
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #500 is a reply to message #495] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 12:03 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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JulesGPI believe that there is a difference between "sin" and "transgression", and the difference is in the level of understanding. Adam transgressed when he ate the fruit, he didn't understand enough at that point for it to be counted as "sin".
I have learned that you can only break a law when you are under it. So, those who are not under the law cannot sin because sin only comes as a result of the law.
Regarding those who are under the law, if they break the law then they either sin or transgress.
Sin is when you break a law having both knowledge and uninhibited free will.
Transgression is when you break a law without knowledge, or uninhibited free will or both.
Because of this, few people truly and fully sin.
The atonement also works differently on sins verse transgressions. Sins require repentance and transgressions are covered without condition by the atonement. Little Children who are born and raised under the law but having not yet gained the knowledge required to sin are like Adam taking the fruit, Transgressing the law.
The veil is placed over our minds to protect us from the knowledge we had previously. By removing our knowledge, we are able to be innocent while we learn to control our bodies and physical appetites. If we retained the knowledge we had previously and could not control our bodies, then we would be sinning against the greater light and knowledge...
~ Seeker
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #509 is a reply to message #497] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 16:53 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Primary Teacher,
Quote:This is why I do not think it is bad to let the missionaries teach children and have them get baptized even when there is very little chance that the parents will continue to bring them to church.
I must agree with you that there is an element of benefit to baptizing children even when they are unlikely to attend church as children.
The church has clearly taken a different stand, and here are a few of the reasons I have heard.
1. By requiring the children to attend church, it will encourage the parents to come back to church as well. I have seen this work on my mission. It doesn't always work, but it does happen.
2. The church already has too many inactive members on the roles. They are working hard to reactivate all these inactive members. Requiring attendance will give the seed more fertile soil to grow in, and reduce the chance the child will remain inactive.
3. There are certain members of polygamist groups who believe their church leaders have lost the authority to baptize, but also believe in polygamy. These people will often pose as inactive families (because the parents were baptized at age  and try to get their children baptized by the LDS church, fully planning to return to their own church, once the baptism is complete. I have seen one such family make it halfway through the discussions before it was discovered they were members of a polygamist group. The elders teaching the family were very displeased. The children were not allowed to be baptized.
I do recall a very special 9 year old boy I tracted into. Both of his parents had been shunned by the local ward, due to their mental handicaps. One of their four children had no such handicap, and the parents allowed us to teach him. Because he was required to attend church prior to his baptism, he rode his bike 1.5 miles to church. He didn't tell us he would be required to do this, but did it anyway. The following week we rode our bikes with him, and the time after that.
Finally the primary presidency heard about this, and arranged a ride for him. The child demonstrated his faith and his desire to become a member, despite his parents refusal to ever return. If he had not been required to attend, would he have attended anyway? I cannot say for sure. What I do know is, he was required to go to extraordinary lengths to meet the requirements placed on him, and he did so.
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #510 is a reply to message #500] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 17:02 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Quote:Seeker: Because of this, few people truly and fully sin.
Quote:2 Nephi 28:8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
Can you explain why your statement that few people truly and fully sin is different from the concept that 'if we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved'?
If people take the idea to heart that none of their misdeeds are actually sin, because they don't have enough knowledge to actually sin, then will they not persist in their transgressions? What would be the purpose of repentance if we have merely transgressed?
More to the point, there are many in the world who will tell you there is no harm in promiscuity, both before and after marriage. There is also a notion of polyandrism, where if it were legal, each person in the relationship would be married to three or four different people, considering none of them above any of the others. The light of Christ flows through the entire universe, and because of this, everyone, from the time they are eight years old, has the capacity to make righteous judgments. They know, at some point in their life, they are doing something wrong. They feel guilty about it, and they push that guilt aside so they can enjoy themselves. I believe these people are sinning. I challenge you to tell me how this is merely a transgression.
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #516 is a reply to message #509] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 08:57 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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"Dragon"2. The church already has too many inactive members on the roles. They are working hard to reactivate all these inactive members.
LOL, I heard of a BYU Statistics professor who was jabbing at how the church membership and growth statistics given in general conference are so high while the government census have very different results. He said, "At the rate the church is growing, by the year 2025 everyone on earth will be inactive Mormons."
"Primary Teacher"This is why I do not think it is bad to let the missionaries teach children and have them get baptized even when there is very little chance that the parents will continue to bring them to church.
Hey Primary Teacher, glad to see you back!
The good thing about baptizing children of "less actives" is that it puts them on the church records. Then the church can legally stalk them and track them. Where as before they could only track the parents. As the children grow up inactive, the missionaries have more people to visit under the guise of a preexisting relationship. Also, the children will always remember being baptized, and this memory will nag at them on and off until they are ready for religion. This is more powerful than, "My parents were Mormon."
Aside from that, baptism does nothing for someone who is not ready to start following Christ. Children are so easily led to do as is expected of them and as the adults tell them to do. Some children like the one Dragon told us about are.
I was not converted until I was 13 even though I was baptized at 8. But I had all the tools that I needed when I was 13 so that when I was spiritually ready, I was prepared with the knowledge of what to do, how to pray, etc.
~ Seeker
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #517 is a reply to message #510] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 09:36 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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"Dragon"If people take the idea to heart that none of their misdeeds are actually sin, because they don't have enough knowledge to actually sin, then will they not persist in their transgressions? What would be the purpose of repentance if we have merely transgressed?
Is the point of doctrine to manipulate others into being Good? Do we teach and believe only those things which use fear and guilt to motivate the wicked to pretended righteousness?
Even the murderers who do not have knowledge enough to sin will be saved in a kingdom of God. This is an example of God's great love.
Quote:17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.
18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.
19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?" - Alma 32:17-19
~ Seeker
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #528 is a reply to message #523] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 10:30 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Quote:In short? Yes. The church uses the fear of God to encourage those new in the faith to obey the commandments. It has been said it is better to do the right thing for the wrong reason, until we learn what the right reason for obedience is. This is the lower law.
Your are right, it is the lower law.
Each kingdom has laws and principles which are true only in that kingdom or sphere. If you want to reside in that kingdom, then you only have to live up to the truths and light by which that sphere is governed.
This is largely where the "Law of Universal Application" comes to play.
The "Law of Universal Application" says that all truth in a sphere of existence must be equally applied to all who reside in that sphere.
So, for example, in the telestial/lowest kingdom, I can lie to everyone. Applying that principle equally to everyone means that everyone can lie to me too. So, we say that liars go to the Telestial kingdom. So do adulterers, murderers, theifs, etc.
One of the truths of this kingdom is, "Everyone will lie, cheat and take advantage of you, so you need to lie, steal and cheat and take advantage of them to succeed and thrive." That is true in this sphere. And everyone who lives in this sphere of existence follows the same rules.
If we want to live with God, then we need to learn how to exist in Gods sphere. We cannot just go to His heaven and ruin it for Him, and make it hell for Him. In fact, everyone who lives in the Celestial Kingdom has learned how to exist with others in a just and equal way, with love being the way. Everyone in the Celestial Realm has learned to do what is right even at our own expense or when it does not favor us.
So essentially, we will live in the society that we create for others. If we stop lying, stealing, murdering, etc. then we can move on to a new sphere in which we are again with people like unto ourselves. We no longer belong to the sphere in which truth says that everyone is a liar and will take advantage of you, so you need to lie and take advantage of them.
Some people who get tired of being cheated will will make one of 2 decisions:- I'm going to cheat others even more because that is the world I live in.
- I can't believe someone would do that to me! I will be even more sure to not hurt others the way this person hurt me.
Law are given to those in the lower kingdoms to keep them in check. They have a form, (semblance or appearance), of Godliness but deny the power, (LOVE), thereof. The form of Godliness that they exhibit is that they do not lie, murder and steal. But the power that sustains this form is the law and its attached punishment.
If a person were to be caught stealing then they would be punished by the law. The sting of the law is the punishment. Those under the law obey the law because they fear the punishment. That punishment can come form the Government, the church, or both, (or in some cases from God directly), depending on who's law they are breaking.
The higher law has no punishments or rules and gets its power from the power of God which is Love. It isn't really a law as much as it is the power which negates the need for laws. It creates the true form of God. Where people live together governing themselves without laws.
Sin can only happen when we are under the lower law. Christ was born into the lower law and came to show the people how to escape it. We want to escape it because all under the law are condemned by the law because all are sinners against the law. But when hte law is fulfilled in Love, then there is not law. Without law you cannot sin.
Here are a few of the hundreds of scriptures that teach this...
"1 Corinthians 15:56"56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
"Gal. 3:24-25"
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
"Galatians 5:14"14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
"Galatians 5:18, 22-23"
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
"Romans 3:19"
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
"Romans 6:14-18"
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
If you are placed under the law as a Child, then you are bound to do every jot and tittle of the law before it is fulfilled and removed. Christ was born under the law and did all things under the law, (Even though he didn't need the law himself. He fulfilled all aspects of the law "inorder to fulfill all righteousness". This also allowed him to show others the way out of the law.
"Galatians 5:3"
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
In the Millennium, parents will understand how to raise their children without the law and so without sin until salvation.
Back to Dragon's quote at the top...
The church teaches the lower law, which is known as the law of Moses and the Preparatory Gospel which was restored with the Aaronic Priesthood by John the Baptist.
As such, there are those in the church who use, teach and expect results from guilt and fear and punishment and so, they teach the "doctrines of Men" or those doctrines which are not Godly and centered in and motivated by LOVE, to manipulate people toward obedience using duty, obligation, fear, expectation, etc. to get others to live the appearance of righteous lives while yet being unrighteous in heart.
In this way the church gives us a tremendous amount of Thou shalt and thou shalt not commandments which detail almost every aspect of our lives from Sunday activities to the number of earrings that girls can have. The bishop and stake pres. are the judges that enforce the punishments as needed. But these are not eternal and eventually there will be no need for the preparatory church or the doctrines of men as described above with their lower methods which have a form of Godliness but deny the true power therefore.
[Updated on: Thu, 21 June 2012 10:54] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #529 is a reply to message #528] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 11:49 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Amonhi,
I feel the need to point out this forum is called 'Current Church Doctrine.' As such, I try to keep my answers here equal to what I would say in Sunday School were these questions asked.
Your comments seem appropriate for LDS Deep Doctrine, and most of them resonate well with the truth I have acquired, telling me of these things. It is sad to think, then, that such a comment in any church class format, would be reported to the Bishop as someone who is reviling against the church and questioning its leaders.
However, those who understand the deeper doctrine know The Church of Jesus Christ has as its goal to bring all men unto Christ. Once that has happened, they are taught by higher beings, and by those who have also been brought to Christ. In short, once you have met Jesus Christ, had your calling and election made sure, The Church of Jesus Christ has fulfilled its role and its goal. The lower law has been fulfilled for you.
There have been passages in this discussion which appear to state we cannot really sin until we know with surety that our actions are against the will of God. What is this knowledge then? Testimony. When we have the Holy Ghost confirm to us of the truth of something, such as The Book of Mormon, then we know it is true. People do not get up in church on Sunday and say 'I have cause to believe the Church is True.' Most of them really and truly know the things they are testifying of. If they then break the laws set forth by the Church, or in the Book of Mormon, is this not sin? They KNOW because they have received the testimony of it, and accepted that testimony.
As for those outside the church, every person born on Earth is born with a knowledge that God exists. Most can be taught the traditions of their fathers, whether correct or incorrect. A few have an innate sense of right and wrong which supersedes anything else they may be taught. In history, these have been the voice of change in a positive direction. They refused to accept the way the world was, because they knew it was wrong.
I believe, or have cause to believe, that everyone on Earth KNOWS right and wrong at some level. They have the capacity to choose, therefore they have the capacity to sin against that which they KNOW.
- Dragons
- Dragon
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #530 is a reply to message #529] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 13:15 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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Both Amonhi and Dragon's posts ring true to me, but since my understanding is less than both of yours, I'm trying to figure all this out and figure out how both ideas fit together. I agree with Amonhi about the lower law vs. the higher law, and our understandings of each having to do with our accountability. I also agree with Dragon and think his explanation is true as well.
"I believe, or have cause to believe, that everyone on Earth KNOWS right and wrong at some level. They have the capacity to choose, therefore they have the capacity to sin against that which they KNOW"
Some of my thoughts that I haven't put together yet, are that first, if we KNOW right from wrong on a particular thing, then that's the spirit telling us it's wrong. So we are sinning against a spiritual confirmation. So that rings true to me as I said. But second, knowing how to apply those truths would fit into what Amonhi is saying. So we could go against what we know is right (knowing we are doing so), but doing it because the church or parents or gov. says that's what we're supposed to do (because we are being commanded in the world of the lower law). So we are kind of caught in a catch 22 situation where either way, we are going against either what we are commanded, or what the spirit is telling us. So my understanding it that the higher law is figuring out HOW to apply what we know to be right.
Amonhi talked on another forum about how Abraham was tested for Godhood when he was told to sacrifice Isaac. So when he did as he was commanded, he was doing what he thought was right because God TOLD him to do it (which is the understanding I had before, and what everyone else understands, probably because of being in the lower law realm) - even though he went against what he KNEW was right. He didn't do what he knew was right - and disobey a command from God himself so at that time he failed the test of Godhood and being admitted into that realm. So was he "sinning" or was that a transgression because he didn't yet know how to apply those things in the realm of Godhood and be under THOSE laws?
Just some of my thoughts... hope they are not too scattered, but I'm working to understand these things.
One question I have: When can we start applying higher laws? When we are little, we are to do things exactly as our parents tell us to. But as we grow in understanding, there is not necessarily a ceremonial declaration regarding our every action that we can now live under a different law. Our parents don't typically come to us and say: "Ok, you now have a full understanding that the stove is hot and if you touch it it will burn you, so I release the command that you are not to touch the stove, and I will now allow you to use your discretion, knowing that it could burn you, but trust that you will be careful". It just kind of "happens" gradually.
SO, when can we move from being commanded in all things within the church culture and having the "follow the prophet because the thinking has been done for us" mentality, and acting upon what we KNOW is right - even though it's not the way the church may expect us to do things? Is it a gradual progression we act on as the spirit dictates? Do we need to wait for our bishop's permission (which we likely would not get)? Do we need to wait for the Savior to stand before us and say "OK, you can now be released from the command not to touch the stove...."? Etc... my FEELING is the first - that we act on the spirit as we progress. But I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. I guess if I need to be more specific for this question to be answered, let me know and I can be, but I'll leave it at this for now.
Thank you guys for sharing your understandings and knowledge!!
~Jules
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #531 is a reply to message #530] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 19:07 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Quote:JulesGP
SO, when can we move from being commanded in all things within the church culture and having the "follow the prophet because the thinking has been done for us" mentality, and acting upon what we KNOW is right - even though it's not the way the church may expect us to do things?
There is a progression of knowledge, which starts with a willingness to believe. If we experiment upon the word, we can believe. Then, as we receive fruits from our experiment, we know. It isn't the only path to knowing, though. Sometimes we believe without being shown, and have our beliefs validated by the Holy Ghost. This also leads to knowledge.
When we do not understand the consequences of something, but KNOW God has commanded us to do or avoid something, we are motivated by fear or devotion. Devotion can be mistaken for love, and it can grow into love. As our knowledge grows, we can follow the law because we want the consequences of following God's commands. The fear of punishment becomes less important than the desire to avoid the negative consequences and seek out the positive consequences.
Why then is there a law written at all? Why is there a punishment set for breaking the speed limit? Why is there a speed limit at all? When I first started driving, I hated being confined by speed limits. I received a few tickets, but kept ignoring the rules, believing I was acting under a higher law. Now I understand speed limits better, and stay within the bounds the law has set. This is because of increased experience, witnessing accidents, and narrowly avoiding others.
If we focus on punishments, we are following the lower law. If we seek the consequences of righteousness, we are following the higher law. It is therefore, rare for the higher law to conflict with the lower law. It happened with Nephi when he slew Laban. It happened when Joshua went to war against Jericho. In both instances, they broke the lower law of Thou Shalt Not Kill, to follow the higher law of saving a nation from dwindling in ignorance and disbelief, or purging the promised land of those who had proven they did not deserve it. In both cases, God superseded the lower law with a higher one.
When we have enough knowledge of the consequences to understand when to violate the letter of the lower law, we are living the higher law. We move from worrying about external punishment to accepting the consequences of our actions. A perfect example of worrying about external punishment is the Secret Service who went to a foreign country, and suddenly thought they could get away with things which were legal in that country, but not in ours. It became a national scandal, because they were ruled by external punishments only.
I hope I've answered the question.
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #535 is a reply to message #528] |
Fri, 22 June 2012 07:11 |
scootd28
Messages: 11
Registered: June 2012
Location: Holladay, UT
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Junior Member |
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Amonhi,
You are really quite amazing. You knowledge and insights are really helpful and uplifting. What you say has the ring of truth and solidifies many things that I have already learned. I guess your post here reminds me of the Nephites, after hearing King Benjamin's speech, no longer having a desire to do evil. I know in my relatively brief life as a member, thanks to the Holy Ghost, the desire to do evil, or the ability to tolerate evil, has been diminishing gradually and consistently. I consider this to be part of the sanctification process (if not all of it).
All, I have struggled lately with some things that I read and hear - everything from people saying that the prophets are no longer true prophets to City Creek to Stake leaders telling my daughter not to pursue having her calling and election made sure. I'm reaching for the glory, (not personal, but to glorify God) but on all sides I see roads and snares that lead nowhere but apostacy. My testimony that I MUST cling to the rod - to scriptures, to the words of the prophets, AND to personal revelation - is strenthened as a result. My trust in the Lord to guide me through this less safe territory is strengthening. In order for Him to be able to do that, though, we must hold on to our testimony that He is in charge, that the prophets and the church are His, and that if we, in our weakness, perceive discrepancies, there is an answer; there IS a correlation and it will be granted us if we pray in faith. If we find ourselves questioning ANY of the components of the iron rod (again - words of the prophets, scriptures, validated by personal revelaltion)we must seek reconciliation - because it IS there. The gospel IS true, it always has been and it always will be, and our comprehension or lack thereof does not change that.
As we venture toward a greater understanding, grow beyond the law as Amonhi (and the scriptures) so eloquently describes, we leave the safe haven of the commandments and become even more subject to the law - the Celestial Law; we become even more reliant upon the personal guidance of the Lord and less reliant upon the structure of the Church. Perhaps, we even NEED the Second Comforter to guide us. That does NOT, however, relieve us of the responsibility to sustain the Church and its leaders with all of our faith, power, and commitment.
Men are that they might have joy.
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #618 is a reply to message #547] |
Fri, 06 July 2012 12:18 |
Ashleyd
Messages: 100
Registered: May 2012
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Senior Member |
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I have been reading much more then writing lately and I have to say this discussion has greatly enlarged my soul. There were a few little thoughts here and there and strokes of ideas that came to my mind while reading. The last thing that came to my mind is that its actually NOT the words of "the prophets" that we want to rely on. Because prophets are just men and NO amount of "THEIR WORDS" can or will save us. It is the word's they speak that are from Christ that we want to follow and heed. They are here to help lead the way by example and they give us insights into the mind and will of the Lord until we fully understand the mind and will of the Lord for ourselves. It's great that people understand they are supposed to have an inside track to the mind and will of the Lord but many stop short and never receive the same knowledge for themselves and that is the whole purpose of their role's. To teach us how to do and gain what they have.
I have appreciated all who have added to this discussion so thank you so much. Amonhi this statement really struck me for some reason. Well said. "Eventually we will rely on our own understanding of morality and we will become like God knowing Good from Evil for ourselves with no other guide. (This is where we hope the prophet is because so many rely on his judgement of right and wrong.)"
It struck me to the very center. It is the whole crux of entering into Godhood.
[Updated on: Fri, 06 July 2012 12:24] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #627 is a reply to message #621] |
Sun, 08 July 2012 01:53 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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All men (and women) are given the Light of Christ in their life. They are given this light so they know Good from Evil. It is not given unto us to know how much the sins of the fathers mitigate the sins of the children. Such judgments are left up to God. However, we are told everyone has enough knowledge to decide and choose good or evil. Thus, all have enough knowledge to sin. The only question is how many commandments a given person has knowledge of and therefore what sins they have enough knowledge to be sins instead of mistakes. And as I said, that is left up to God.
To address your specific example, it is NOT the dictates of society which determine what is right or wrong, not does social acceptance of a sin make it acceptable to God. In the case of promiscuity, I have seen what happens when people accept polyamorism. There is no way to avoid causing pain and heartache to at least one partner when people are permitted to share the sacred act of sex with anyone and without any form of commitment. Even when the society accepts this practice, it still causes pain, thus teaching them it is wrong. The only way a society can continue to accept promiscuity or pedophilia, is for the majority of the members to overlook that little voice in their head saying it is wrong and causing pain.
- Dragon
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #629 is a reply to message #627] |
Sun, 08 July 2012 12:11 |
kenh
Messages: 62
Registered: June 2012
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I understand what you are saying. Yes, people make choices all the time that are based on what they understand to be the right or wrong choices but most people do not connect with the still small voice that is the voice of Christ to everyone here on earth trying to guide them to do what is right. The concept of guilt has to be taught to be fully understood. The concept of a conscience and identifying with that voice also needs to be taught. If someone were to feel that something they said, did or thought was wrong without understanding that they need to change their thoughts, words or actions or for that matter how they are to make those changes, not to mention why they were to change in the first place, then God will judge them far differently than He would judge one of us who have been given greater light and knowledge from Him. For this reason, those who die without the law will be redeemed and inherit the terrestrial kingdom, not the telestial, unless they were not honorable in how they lived they lives. I understand that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. We all need Christ to save us from physical death and cover our transgressions and sins through His Atonement. The heathen nations will be redeemed in spite of their traditions of their fathers and customs of their cultures. They will go to spirit prison, not hell where the wicked go, and then they are taught the error of their ways as well as the fullness of the gospel in its purity by the faithful on the other side of the veil. Those that realize the truth and desire to accept it fully will have the opportunity to live unto God in the spirit, but still be judged according to men in the flesh. The blinding by the craftiness of men would include the false traditions of their fathers. This way we reserve all judgment unto the Son of God.
D&C 76:71-75
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law; (All those who did not have the fullness of the gospel available to them in this life)
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
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| Re: Knowledge enough to sin [message #675 is a reply to message #618] |
Thu, 19 July 2012 18:28 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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"Ashleyd"The last thing that came to my mind is that its actually NOT the words of "the prophets" that we want to rely on. Because prophets are just men and NO amount of "THEIR WORDS" can or will save us. It is the word's they speak that are from Christ that we want to follow and heed. They are here to help lead the way by example and they give us insights into the mind and will of the Lord until we fully understand the mind and will of the Lord for ourselves. It's great that people understand they are supposed to have an inside track to the mind and will of the Lord but many stop short and never receive the same knowledge for themselves and that is the whole purpose of their role's. To teach us how to do and gain what they have.
This is correct! Well worded. We get confused because of the common interpretation of D&C 1:38
Quote:What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. Why is it the same? Because the prophet speak for God? No, because anyone speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost is speaking with the "Voice of God" which carries the message to the heart of the hearer as a personal revelation witnessed by the spirit. Whether God speaks by the Holy Ghost or his Servants speak by the Holy Ghost, we have the same experience of internal ratification. We know it for ourselves by personal witness either way.
Quote:Doctrine and Covenants 68:4
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
Follow the spirit which is the ONLY being authorized and ordained to "Teach us ALL Things".
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I have seen it time and again. Leaders who don't know the way themselves cannot lead others well. So sad. Good thing she has your guidance to help.
