Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » The Possibility of Reincarnation (Does Church Doctrine allow for the existence of Reincarnation?)
| The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #259] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 16:07  |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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In an Ensign article from 1989, Spencer J. Palmer brings up the following 5 reasons why reincarnation conflicts with the Gospel.
Quote:1. There is only one physical death, not many.
Hebrews 9:27 says: Quote:And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
This scripture is used to show that we will only die once. However, there is room for interpretation. There is certainly two deaths to be concerned with. The first is the physical, and the second is the spiritual. Thus, I cannot see this scripture as precluding the possibility of reincarnation.
Quote:2. In the resurrection, spirits inhabit the bodies they had in mortality, not other bodily forms.
This does not necessarily preclude the possibility of reincarnation. When we achieve the highest level of happiness which we can obtain, we are resurrected in the body in which we achieved that degree of happiness.
Quote:3. Reincarnation implies that the body is of little consequence.
Perhaps in other religions, reincarnation has been used to support this kind of thinking. However, we know we are working toward exaltation, and this effort will require the bodies we inhabit at the time we achieve our greatest happiness. In other words, keeping our bodies pure and clean is part of the process of achieving exaltation.
Quote:4. Now is the time to prepare to meet God--not later, in some indeterminate future.
It should be noted that the life we are currently living is long enough and with enough potential to achieve exaltation. Not everyone will, but everyone has the possibility to do so.
Quote:5. Reincarnation denies the entire purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
This one I do not understand. But perhaps I will refute it by explaining how I believe this reincarnation works.
While sitting in the temple, I was searching for more meaning in the temple video. We are told to liken the scriptures unto us, so I wondered what if each of the creative periods applied to me, personally. Is it possible that I used to be light? Did I then progress to water or land? Did I become a plant in some former life, only to be reborn as a fish, then a beast? If this is all true, what would be the purpose?
We are told that our pets will have a greater level of communication in the next life, but we are not told what that is. We are not told our pets will be dedicated pets to us in the next life.
I have often pondered upon what an intelligence is, where they come from, and what God does with them. All things were created by God, and every living thing has a spirit, meaning to me that they were all once intelligences. So what causes God to take one intelligence and make it into a planet, and take another to make it into a beetle, then take yet another and make it into a human with the potential of exaltation? It doesn't seem fair for one spirit to inhabit a tree which can never be like God and another to be a human with a chance to be like God.
I considered the possibility that the spirit of a tree, if it exercises it's agency well, could progress in some way to being more like its Creator. The same must be true of animals. Thus, when I pondered on this possibility, the logic seems sound that we can progress from less complex forms of existence to more complex forms, with the ultimate pinnacle of agency and potential being human existence.
I lived with this logic, allowing it to work its way into my soul. I believed I understood how all of it worked, but there was still more to learn.
The last part of this theory, which is the most controversial, is that of human reincarnation. Can a person who has not achieved exaltation, return to Earth as a human and try again? There are many who have stories of remembering previous lives. And there is also the great mystery of the final battle, after the millennium of peace. What will we be battling over? If everyone has been resurrected in their perfected forms, from whence we cannot lose our kingdoms or achieve a greater one, what is the battle over?
Here is what I'm postulating. A loving God will give each of His children every chance He can for them to progress. Yet there is a limited amount of time for them to do so. There is a final judgment, with an appointed time. What if the Morning of the First Resurrection is a time during which people are born into this world who God is certain will achieve exaltation. These would be those that God has determined need only one more life, or perhaps it is their first life, in order to become Gods. Then, the afternoon of the first resurrection will be those who are more likely to, but have not yet achieved the Terrestrial Glory. Or perhaps those worthy of the Terrestrial Glory who are given one more chance to achieve the Celestial. Then, at the end of the millennium of peace, those who are worthy of the Telestial Kingdom will be born with one final chance to achieve exaltation. It would take 1000 years to have all of these souls born and live and die. This would be the battle, to save as many of them as we can. Since their hearts are not pure, Satan will be released from his prison, having the ability once more to influence and tempt men.
I am eager for your thoughts, comments, and corrections on this theory.
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #260 is a reply to message #259] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 17:43  |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Some interesting quotes I found...
Quote:"Michael was a celestial, resurrected being, of another world." Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, pg.179-180
Quote:"Respecting the Melchizedek Priesthood, the sectarians never professed to have it; consequently they never could save any one, and would all be damned together. There was an Episcopal priest who said he had the priesthood of Aaron, but had not the priesthood of Melchizedek: and I bear testimony that I never have found the man who claimed the Priesthood of Melchizedek. The power of the Melchizedek Priesthood is to have the power of "endless lives"; for the everlasting covenant cannot be broken." Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44, p.322
Quote:"President Young said Michael was a resurrected being and he left Eloheem and Came to this earth & with an immortal Body & continued so till he partook Earthly food and begat Children who were mortal. (Keep this to yourselves). Then they died." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World's End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.247 January 27, 1860
Quote:"When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again, like brother Kimball's old pottery ware, to be ground up, and made over again." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 1:, p.275 - 276 ibid
Quote: "President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World's End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290
Quote: "The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has." -Joseph Smith Jr., Words of Franklin D. Richards: Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings, edited by Larry E. Dahl and Donald Q.Cannon Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized.
Quote:"If you do not cultivate yourselves, and cultivate your spirits in this state of existence, it is just as true as there is a God that liveth, you will have to go into another state of existence, and bring your spirits into subjection there. Now you may reflect upon it, you never will obtain your resurrected bodies, until you bring your spirits into subjection. I am not talking to this earthly house of mine, neither am I talking to your bodies, but I am speaking to your spirits. I am not talking as to people who are not in the house. Are not your spirits in the house? Are not your bodies your houses, your tabernacles or temples, and places for your spirits? Look at it; reflect upon it. If you keep your spirits trained according to the wisdom and fear of God, you will attain to the salvation of both body and spirit. I ask, then, if it is your spirits that must be brought into subjection? It is; and if you do not do that in these bodies, you will have to go into another estate to do it. You have got to train yourselves according to the law of God, or you will never obtain your resurrected bodies. Mark It!" - Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, p.356
Quote:"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth...'well,' says one ' Why was Adam called Adam'? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, 'I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?" -Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873
~ Seeker
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #321 is a reply to message #260] |
Sat, 30 April 2011 23:31 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Quote:"Michael was a celestial, resurrected being, of another world." Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, pg.179-180
Quote:"President Young said Michael was a resurrected being and he left Eloheem and Came to this earth & with an immortal Body & continued so till he partook Earthly food and begat Children who were mortal. (Keep this to yourselves). Then they died." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World's End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.247 January 27, 1860
These quotes speak volumes. It indicates a goal we may achieve if we live this life correctly. This tells both of the past and of the goals of exaltation. One might even say this makes Adam our God.
- Dragon
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #339 is a reply to message #324] |
Sat, 07 May 2011 08:14 |
bishop
Messages: 144
Registered: July 2010
Location: USA
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I have considered this topic, also.
It makes sense that the millions of years of earth's existence was millions of years of progression of spirits. If this world is patterned after the spirit world, then it makes sense that our spirit is made up of many tiny particles, just like our bodies. These particles exercised their agency to be joined together into a human spirit. It could take many life cycles for these spirits to reach the level of maturity or complexity to join together into such a high form.
We are taught that the purpose of all creation is to benefit man: D&C 59:18 Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;
This statement, combined with the statement that the work and the glory of God is to bring to pass the eternal life and exaltation of man imply that there is a much bigger reason for the many years of earth's existence before Adam. It seems logical that the wild men who inhabited Europe and followed the herds 25,000 years ago had a purpose. The whole theory of spiritual evolution seems possible. It would be facilitated by reincarnation.
It is possible that the advancement of man through the past 6,000 years has been the advancement of God's spirit children towards the glorious Millennium. There have been righteous men from the beginning, but it appears that man, as a whole, has become more refined, more on a spiritual plane. Reason tells me that if God's work and his glory is to exalt man, and he always fulfills his purposes, then man will be given every opportunity to become exalted. This is why we are given time in the spirit world after death-to continue to progress.
This whole topic is widely conjecture and only confirm-able outside of LDS scriptures. Wouldn't it be funny to find out that Darwin was right when talking about spiritual progression!
Bishop
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #370 is a reply to message #339] |
Fri, 25 May 2012 09:40 |
SirExcedrin
Messages: 7
Registered: May 2012
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Junior Member |
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Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment;
If the verse said: And as it is appointed unto day once to sundown, but after that the night;
I wonder if we would then be running around quoting it as proof that there is only one day regardless of opinions to the contrary? I mean, Hebrews 9:27 does not seem to dismiss the idea of additional lives, but rather that each life is punctuated by a death (a sundown) followed by some period of correction (a judgement) before the next one begins.
Now I mean no disrespect to Spencer Palmer by this. When I was a kid I used to spend a lot of time in the summer playing in his swimming pool and I always thought he was a really good guy. However, I've always felt that some kind of multiple lives idea to be far more sensible than the "one life and then too bad for you" idea, and far more consistent with a loving Father working to give each of us the full experience of his eternal life. A single life proposal, rather than seeing the morning stars singing together and all the sons of God shouting for joy, would more likely have seen us instead, wringing our hands with worry.
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #388 is a reply to message #259] |
Sat, 26 May 2012 12:37 |
Eve_
Messages: 20
Registered: May 2012
Location: Arizona
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I do not believe we come back for multiple probations. Here is my reasoning: We were sent here to be tested, to see what we would do blindfolded. We are what we are, and no matter how many times we're born we'll do the exact same thing each time. It's an uncovering of our real selves, the selves that were hidden from us in the premortal life. (How many of us truly know ourselves even here?)
How do I then justify some of Brigham Young's comments? I don't. I have a very unpopular opinion of Brigham Young and his actual ability to speak the words of God to the people. He was not ordained to be a prophet by anyone, least of of Jesus, Himself. He had a right to rule, to be the president of the church because of the law of common consent. He pretended to no authority from the personal hand of Christ. And that is all I'll say about my opinion on him.
What about the doctrine of eternal lives? Well, as taught in the current church it seems to be talking about eternal increase (having children who then have children, etc.). ... But ...
I do think it is possible, for us to have incarnations elsewhere. For example, Joseph's reported teaching about the Holy Ghost. I'm not sure how to explain my views, but I'll try. We were all on a form of probation in the Spirit world. Some lost that. The Holy Ghost, like Jesus, is not going to lose that spiritual probation. Then, we move on to this mortal life. If we keep this one, then we may move on to another existence in some other substance, just like intelligence is a different physical substance from spirit which is different from the body we have now which is different from the bodies we'll have after we're resurrected.
So - intelligence > spirit > mortal body > resurrected body > ? > ? > ? And most people have a stop-off in the spirit world between mortality and the resurrection, but not all people do.
Anyway, that's my take on it. But I'll not argue your freedom to believe as you choose.
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #395 is a reply to message #394] |
Sat, 26 May 2012 23:13 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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SirExcedrin,
If there is an offer or availability of reincarnation, I see it as a method for improving on what you learned in your life, changing the very essence of who you are, planning out a new life with the help of God, choosing experiences which will teach you more than you learned before.
Spirit Paradise is for those who have kept their baptismal covenants. By definition, they should qualify for the Celestial Kingdom. In Spirit Paradise, we review our life, commune with God, and those we knew in life and before, and we choose what to do next. If we are ready for our Final Judgement, we proceed there. If we are not, then I imagine we spend time learning what we can in Spirit Paradise, and then take another journey in mortality to improve on what we have done.
As for Spirit Prison, the way I have heard it explained it is a place for those who are unable to progress. Some of them will stay there because they made choices in life which they cannot let go of. They are stuck with what they did in their life, tainting their very souls to the point they cannot progress further. Others wait there because the ordinances of baptism have not been performed. They have made progress in their life and eagerly await the ordinances so they can move forward.
As for the physical resurrection, it is a permanent changing of the very substance of the body. Once we have done all we can to progress, or refuse to progress any further, our bodies and spirits are reunited forever, never to be separated again, Having flesh and bone, but no blood, with light filling our veins. Once this has taken place, no amount of effort of any kind will change a Telestial body into a Terrestrial or Celestial one.
Let me be very clear. The Gospel of Christ is simple enough, and accessible enough that everyone, no matter what their life before this one has been like, has the potential to achieve exaltation in a single lifetime. I don't believe multiple lives are necessary for all people to achieve it. But I do believe there are circumstances and sins which no amount of repenting can fully erase. King David is one such example. He did repent, but his crimes were too great to achieve exaltation in his life. Is it possible that once freed of the body, he was able to make the necessary corrections in his soul and plan another life which would allow him to progress past what he had done? Or should he wait in Spirit Prison until the Final Judgement?
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #412 is a reply to message #395] |
Mon, 28 May 2012 11:02 |
SirExcedrin
Messages: 7
Registered: May 2012
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Thank you Mr Dragon for your most excellent reply! I was struck, and struck strongly, by the spirit when you wrote:
Quote:"Once we have done all we can to progress, or refuse to progress any further, our bodies and spirits are reunited forever"
I cannot detail the mechanism used, but God is love (I John 4) and I truly believe that our Father is working to give every one of his children the full experience of His life, which is eternal life (D&C 19). So it totally makes sense to me that as long as a child has the desire and is trying, even though that child may be like me - slower than most, that a path to perfection would remain open - regardless of the time factor encapsulating a single lifetime because this great plan has all been instituted from a place outside of time.
This thought came to me: If we were to think in terms of time, and accept that as Alma(40) said, Quote:"The spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life."
and that is somewhere nigh unto Kolob, where the reckoning of time is one thousand Earth years to one Kolob day (Abraham 3). That is saying to me that if I live a full life of 70 years here on earth, that my spirit will return having only been gone a couple of hours! And I am returning to those that I have known and loved for possibly billions of years!! Are they then going to throw me into a black hole somewhere if things didn't go perfectly well for me while I was on earth??? That's like believing that I go into the exam center at BYU, mess up my exam and upon exiting the center I'm taken and beaten and thrown into a hole somewhere with the other losers by my friends and family and teachers, simply because it is corporate policy and there is nothing to be done for it. The fact is that no one much cares how I did on my exam beyond me, and all others just wish me best of luck and offer me their encouragement to do the best I can.
Well, that's how I'm seeing things today. I may be totally wrong about being provided multiple lives if needed or some similar mechanism. The only thing I stand firm on here is that it is my true belief that our Father loves each of us infinitely and wants us to experience His eternal life's joy and will provide us with EVERYTHING we need to do so as LONG as we desire it and are willing to keep trying.
[Updated on: Mon, 28 May 2012 11:24] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #436 is a reply to message #412] |
Wed, 30 May 2012 14:41 |
bishop
Messages: 144
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Location: USA
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I have often wondered about the wild men who followed the herds 25,000 years ago. I have wondered if they weren't growing to the point to become sons of God in another life.
Bishop
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #439 is a reply to message #393] |
Thu, 31 May 2012 11:27 |
Eve_
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Registered: May 2012
Location: Arizona
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Dragon wrote on Sat, 26 May 2012 21:51Eve,
Thank you for sharing your views. I'm not here to claim my viewpoints are infallible, so of course they can benefit from the criticism of others. I do have a few questions about your viewpoints. Have you considered there are more steps before the mortal human body is obtained? Also, we were created in the image of God. So whatever existence we have after this one will involve a human looking body. Our goal is to become more like God. Thus, obtaining a body in His image is progress towards that end. What's more, assuming we do as we should in this life, we would only progress to be more like God, not less. Thus our bodies can only become more like God in our eternal progression.
- Dragon
I actually have considered the idea of an existence before intelligence, though I haven't thought of it often. I have even wondered crazy things like, "Do I now exist elsewhere in another time and/or another space?" "Am I now going through what I went through when I was five or what I will go through when I'm fifty, but in another dimension?"
I think we know so little about everything. I think it was when I was reading your original post that I began wondering how far away from us God really is, as far as us becoming like Him. We really know nothing except how to deal with this incarnation, this mortal level of living. We may have to go through a thousand steps to get to Him. But the Pearl of Great Price assures us that if we keep this estate, we will have glory added upon us forever. To me, that means that this step is the last stop where we can "blow it" and any other levels will be more for learning, expanding, and becoming.
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #442 is a reply to message #439] |
Thu, 31 May 2012 15:39 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Eve_,
Thank you for your post. The line of thought which led me to consider reincarnation starts with the doctrine that every living thing has a spirit. They were all once intelligences, as were we. What king of God selects one intelligence to be a tree, another a dog, and another a man? If we each only get one mortal existence, does a tree live eternity as a tree? Could intelligences really be so different that most of them only have the potential to be a fish or a blade of grass and never be anything more?
I could not make sense of this until I likened the scriptures unto myself. If the story of creation is also the story of my own creation, perhaps I was light, then I was matter, then I became a plant, an animal, and finally a human. Who know how many stops along the way I needed to make to understand everything I could at each level?
How do you answer the same questions?
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1058 is a reply to message #442] |
Sat, 01 September 2012 05:00 |
mormonhah
Messages: 11
Registered: July 2012
Location: SLC
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I am curious, after reading through the thread how one makes a determination of reincarnation vs progression. I do not see them as the same.
If reincarnation as you speak of it is applied to all mortal beings, would not that also include Jehovah/Christ? All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made. Now I realize that He didn't "create" matter. It always was, as is agency.
As agency always was, Jehovah only gathered together the matter, reminded it/us what we could become and allowed us the opportunity to develop through the righteous use of that agency. There must have been matter that chose not become part of the earth. Does this mean several more opportunities to become a part of something bigger and better?
I would like to hear a specific definition of reincarnation as I have a difficult time seeing Jehovah/Christ in that same pattern.
If I had not actually got into this work and been called of God, I would back out. But I cannot back out: I have no doubt of the truth.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1060 is a reply to message #1058] |
Sat, 01 September 2012 09:05 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Mormonhah,
Excellent question. The answer starts with the definition of pre-mortal existence. What exactly did we experience before the life we are living now? How did we progress from a bare intelligence to have the capability to control our bodies and reason? What is Creation, and how do we 'return and report'?
If an intelligence is a form of pure energy, which is 'created' into matter through a process we don't presently understand, that intelligence would learn to control matter, and obey the laws which God has placed over that matter. The laws of quantum mechanics, as mortal minds comprehend it, show the tiniest particles of matter do not all act the same, and they do not always do the same thing when run through the same experiment repeatedly. What's more, they appear to sense the desires of the one conducting the tests, and more often than not, bend to that will. Does this sound like a being learning to control matter? Making choices, mistakes, and exercising agency? When that particle is destroyed, energy is released, and perhaps it returns to that God which gave it matter, and reports on what it learned.
Larger particles, known as atoms, have a varying number of smaller particles within them. The electrons still behave in a semi-predictable and erratic behavior. The behavior of the atoms as a whole are still controlled by the law of averages, meaning not all of the atoms will react when placed in a certain environment. Chemistry shows us this, and studies what reactions happen. Again, we have seemingly identical particles behaving differently. It is more predictable, but still not certain. When atoms or chemicals are destroyed, they release varying amounts of energy. Perhaps that energy returns to the God who gave them matter, and reports on what they learned.
Large formations of matter, from stones and rivers, to mountains, planets, and stars. do not appear to our view to act, but are acted upon. Perhaps if we had a long enough perspective, we could see how similar rocks or rivers react differently to the same conditions. Some stars burn out more quickly than others, along a relatively predictable pattern. However, we do not know until it has happened exactly how much stress a rock can withstand before being crushed. We cannot say with great accuracy which direction a river will take to change its course. We are starting to learn how planets are formed, why some support life and others do not. No scientist can say how soon the star Betelgeuse will 'die' and become a white dwarf star. The best we can say is, some time in the next 500,000 years (a very short time for a star). That is like saying an old man will probably die in the next two weeks. But these things do die. They are destroyed. Sometimes the energy released is visible, as in the case of a star, and sometimes it is not. But whatever energy controlled that object probably returns to the God which gave it form and reports on what it learned.
The tiniest of creatures, which are smaller than bacteria, behave in a somewhat predictable manner. But we cannot say for certain how a give organism, from a prion to a giraffe, will react in a given environment. Some creatures will survive a storm while others will not. Some live through a drought, and some don't. They makes choices, and when they die, they return to that God who gave them life and report.
The concept of reincarnation as I understand it, begins when that being reports to God on their experiences. Some believe the atom, rock, tree, or rabbit, are then given entrance into one of the three kingdoms. I will admit, necessity requires it to be so. Some of the creatures decide they have progressed as far as they can, and select a kingdom of glory to inhabit forever. I believe others choose to progress onward. They decide to accept the next mortal experience. Whatever they need to keep progressing, they decide what their next experience should be. This is done in the presence of, and with the council of God.
As it was with me, I know it is much easier to accept the idea we may have passed through these phases of progression prior to this life than it is to accept the possibilities we have had human lives before this one. So the following observations may help clarify the boundaries of this opportunity for multiple human lives.
First and foremost, this life, which you are living now, is sufficiently long and sufficiently rich in experience to allow you to obtain exaltation and eternal progression. Thus, THIS life is the time for men to prepare to meet God.
Secondly, Alma taught only the righteous, or the Celestial beings were resurrected at the time when Christ was resurrected. This means Terrestrial beings who lived prior to the time of Christ have not faced their final judgement.
Third, there IS a final judgement, which takes place after the millennium of peace, and after the 'short' period of war which follows. We do not have an infinite number of opportunities.
Additionally, I do not believe there is any reason a human being would be reincarnated as anything else. Human is the final state prior to exaltation. We are presently in the physical form of God, which means no other physical form will aid us in progression.
I'm not saying everyone chooses a second human life, and I AM saying a second human life is not necessary to achieve our greatest glory. It is likely rare, but I cannot know this for certain. Many have memories of their past life. I grew up believing I had been on earth as a human before. It was drummed out of me for awhile, but I have once more embraced the concept and the memories. Whether our previous human life was cut short through accident, our own sins, or the sins of others, a spirit which does not get enough time to prove themselves must get another chance. Those who live mostly good lives, but make a mistake or two which prevents their exaltation, might be given an opportunity to take what they have learned and try again.
I hope this sufficiently explains the concept of reincarnation as I understand it.
- Dragon
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1822 is a reply to message #1060] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 16:50 |
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rdwhitaker
Messages: 118
Registered: December 2012
Location: Vancouver, Washington
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Senior Member |
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The problem with the concept of reincarnation, is that it is so "linear." We speak of "time" as if it means something to God and His eternal purposes. It does not. Time is an invention just for a small part of our eternal progression. Time is .... temporary!
Reincarnation contemplates coming back again and again, which is a linear idea. That just goes against my spiritual sense of what is correct.
True, God gives us every opportunity to progress. But He also gives us the pure results of our agency, for better or worse.
A third part of the hosts of heaven exercised their agency with terminal results for their progression. Why should we think God will ignore our exercise of our agency and give us "do-overs". Since, as I believe, God judges our natures more than our actions, wouldn't giving us "do-overs" just end up with us inefficiently repeating the same course of action over and over again, due to our nature?
Reincarnation claims we might be given multiple lives in order to learn what we can and should learn to progress to the full measure of our potential. I could only conceive of this if we had memory of our prior lives, so we could remember and learn from our mistakes there to avoid repeating them. But we do not have a memory of our pre-earth life. I believe the design of this mortal probation requires that we have no memory of it.
This is my 2 cents' worth -
Ryan
Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1899 is a reply to message #1822] |
Thu, 10 January 2013 14:09 |
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rdwhitaker
Messages: 118
Registered: December 2012
Location: Vancouver, Washington
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Senior Member |
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Also, I just read this scripture cited in another thread.
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.
(Alma 11:45)
Is not that pretty clear?
Ryan
Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1905 is a reply to message #1899] |
Thu, 10 January 2013 19:03 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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From what you wrote, I conclude you believe we cannot change our nature. I do not believe this. It is the crux of the atonement to change our nature. Thus, if I have a different nature when I leave this life compared to when I entered it, I would have improved. If I did not qualify for exaltation, could I not return to Earth to improve my nature again?
As I have said before, I believe reincarnation to be rare. Very few people would desire to return to Earth and try to improve on those aspects which prevented their exaltation.
Now, as to reincarnation being linear, it is far from linear. I am not saying everyone follows the same path. I am not saying anyone needs more than one human life. I am saying why is it not possible for God to allow someone to return to Earth? Do we have memories of the pre-existence? Yes. I have some memories of it. Do we have memories of previous lives? Some of us do.
While this deserves its own topic, where does it say God exists out of time? Alma says time is measured only unto man, but that does not mean God exists outside of time.
As for Alma 11:45, yes, it very clearly states what will happen when a person is resurrected. It does not cover everything which can or might happen before that time.
- Dragon
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1908 is a reply to message #259] |
Fri, 11 January 2013 10:14 |
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rdwhitaker
Messages: 118
Registered: December 2012
Location: Vancouver, Washington
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Senior Member |
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Let's follow this line of thinking a little bit.
Say I was born in the covenant in 1953 and that I died while a child. According to your reincarnation idea, are you saying its possible I might be born a mortal being again? Say my parents lived the Gospel to their fullest and had their C&E, received all the promises with it, including the promise that their children were sealed to them for eternity. Say reincarnation was possible, and I later was born to some other righteous family, was born in the covenant with them, and that they also received their C&E and all of its promises, including having their family sealed to them for eternity.
So I would then be sealed to two families? Supposed I too had my C&E and all of its blessings. Which family would I be sealed to? Suppose I "remembered" living a prior life. When I do my genealogy, which life and which ancestors do I research?
What would be the point of being given a "do-over" if you cannot remember what errors you made the previous time(s)? Imagine a school exam where the teacher said, "Your success in passing this test depends on things you don't know at this time." That would not be fair, or "just" -- and we know our God IS just!
As for people "remembering" prior lives -- Spencer wrote in his book that evil spirits love to play with the minds of mortals by whispering to them things from their own lives just to confuse and mislead them. If someone says they remember living a prior life, I maintain they have been lied to by spirits intent on leading them, and those who would believe them, off of the correct path to exaltation. That is my humble opinion, seemingly shared by others.
I don't buy any of it. It is a doctrine intent on deceiving. Christ's gospel plan is beautiful in its simplicity. It is the enemy of Christ who twists the message out of shape and makes it subtle, difficult, mysterious, confusing, and contentious.
Ryan
Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!
[Updated on: Fri, 11 January 2013 10:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1916 is a reply to message #259] |
Fri, 11 January 2013 17:52 |
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Kingdom of ZION
Messages: 46
Registered: November 2012
Location: Colorado
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Reincarnation as in you coming back as a butterfly or the family cow like Hindu's believe is a false doctrine. But you always have to have a counterfeit to deceive the foolish, spiritually immature (before their time) and those who would use such a doctrine to put off their day of repentance. Does the Father have doctrines not openly revealed to the world, understood by his church at times? Yes, because of their unworthiness, such knowledge can be taken from them. It was once taught... the doctrine of Eternal Lives (D&C 132). Those who ask, seek, and knock (ASK!) shall find, and the door shall be open unto them.
Coming of Eliyah is yet future, the Restoration of Yesrael and the Kingdom or Gospel and the other 2/3's of the Book of Mormon will follow. If Eliyah does not come, then with the coming of the Messiah, the earth shall be cursed and utterly wasted!
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