Home » Discuss Elliaison Books and Articles » The Atonement of Jesus Christ » Justice (Who is justice that makes demands?)
| Justice [message #3853] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 03:17  |
Contemplator
Messages: 12
Registered: January 2013
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Junior Member |
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Phillip asked me to start a thread with this exchange from commenting on the book.
Elliaison - The Atonement Book
"If we don’t repent, then God is honor-bound to uphold justice against us. God did not set the requirement of repentance, justice did.
"And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God." - Alma 42:12-13"
Contemplator - Who is justice? How did justice come into being? If god is the first cause, then god created justice. If god is not the first cause, then god is not what we think. This line of thinking may be an attempt to stay in the legal system version of justice, but it potentially creates real problems for our understanding of god.
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| Re: Justice [message #3858 is a reply to message #3853] |
Sun, 14 June 2020 22:31  |
Contemplator
Messages: 12
Registered: January 2013
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Junior Member |
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Hi John144,
Yes, these are subtle conversations. I appreciate the idea of a law irrevecobly decreed in heaven. But, who decreed? Who enforces? Why?
I am not assuming that god is the first cause. I am trying to explore the question of who imposes justice. Why is it described as demanding something. This question is prompted by the way that justice is presented in the book.
Are you suggesting something about who god is? I am genuinely interested in your thoughts.
[Updated on: Sun, 14 June 2020 23:24] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Justice [message #3865 is a reply to message #3853] |
Fri, 19 June 2020 00:05 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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I think that "What God is" is relevant to this discussion.
Quote:19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.” - D&C 93:2-3, 15-19
There are many Gods. Jesus was a god, Moses was a god (Ex. 7:1), those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise are gods (D&C 76:58). But there is a God of Gods which is a what, not a who. There is an Elliaison Article (36 pages) that talks about this God that is a "What" and how we are in it and it is in us. We are waiting on one more person to sign off on it before we can release it to you guys to proof read.
All Gods are subject to the irrevocable decrees and they are irrevocable. I was going to say that the gods didn't make these irrevocable decrees, but then I took it back. They did, we all did, in a way...
Truth in the universe is both dependent and independent of us.
It is independent because we don't get to decide what truth is. We can accept it or reject it, learn it or ignore it, but it remains truth independent of what we think or believe or want. We can't change it to suit our desires, just as no god can change truth to meet their desires. Even Jesus Christ can't say, "today I decide that you CAN in fact be saved in your sins." Gods, (gods), don't create truth, they conform to it. Jesus is the way the truth and the life because he grew in truth until he received a fulness of it.
Quote:D&C 93
11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.
12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;
13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;
14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.
So something called truth exists independent of gods like Jesus.
Quote:D&C 93
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
But it is also dependent on us all. If we didn't exist, then truth wouldn't exist. If a tree fell in the forest and nobody was around to hear it, would it make a sound? The answer is, "yes" because of truth. If the tree didn't exist, then the truth of it's existence and all that it did would not exist either. The very fact that we are creates truth. The fact that we interact together as individual intelligences means that there are truths that govern our interactions. If I make myself a tyrant over others using fear, power, and manipulation then the relationship I have with others will be a certain way. I can't change the truths of how relationships work. But at the same time, the truths exist because we exist. Not that we decide what truth is, but that truth is:
Quote:D&C 93
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
This means that truth requires existence. If nothing exists then there are no things that are, were or will be so there is no truth. Our existence creates truth.
There is a God of Gods that would be considered the initial cause of all things. But that's tricky and confusing because it assumes that the initial cause existed alone at some point. But this isn't the case. We were all in the beginning. Intelligence can neither be created nor destroyed.
Quote:D&C 93
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
So, we are all part of the initiating cause that is called God, which is why I said above, "I was going to say that the gods didn't make these irrevocable decrees, but then I took it back. They did, we all did, in a way..." We were there, we've always been here. I think this will make more sense when the article I referenced is released. But just as Jesus learned and accepted truth for truth until he received a fulness, we are also on that same path, but further behind. We have not yet received a fulness of truth.
The concept of Justice is a truth that exists as a result of our existence. God didn't create it or make it up, our existence did. If gods do not honor justice, then they are not aligned with the God of Gods which is the spirit of truth. The God of Gods or the spirit of truth exists as a result of our existence. LOL, I'm not sure that makes any sense.
But here's something to consider. All of the scriptures I quoted in this post came from D&C 93. That section is trying to explain something that I'm trying to explain. I understand it by revelation, but have a difficult time explaining it without showing the vision. But, it's explained in D&C 93, and better in the Elliaison article which includes Philip's vision of the God of Gods and well as the scriptures that say everyone on earth who has eyes has already seen the God of Gods but couldn't comprehend Him.
Here's another key scripture from another section that helps to understand this.
Quote:D&C 88
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.
The light is the light of truth, (D&C 88:6), also called the light of Christ, (D&C 88:7), which is in all things (D&C 88:13), governs all things, even the power of God, (D&C 88:13).
So, something inside us, (you and me and everything), governs all things, even the power of God. That thing gives us life and is called the light of truth.
Seek Truth,
Amonhi
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| Re: Justice [message #3867 is a reply to message #3865] |
Sun, 21 June 2020 09:38 |
Contemplator
Messages: 12
Registered: January 2013
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Junior Member |
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This is a wonderful post on a topic that is so big that I don’t know if I can do it justice in any response (you see what I did there? 😂😂😂 I do enjoy a pun!
In my OP, I brought up the nature of God for a specific reason that I did not make clear. Many discussion of the atonement are premised on an idea of a “price for sin.” That must be paid. In this paradigm, justice is the system that enforces the payment of some kind of price for sin. Each sin has a price, maybe measured in units of suffering, and that price must be paid before mercy can be applied. So, the atonement becomes a pathetic exercise in whipping, torturing and killing Jesus so that he will pay the price for sin and we get off free for having accepted Jesus. Now, I know that this is not your view. You have taught vigorously against this. But, the notion of justice has become linked to this penal substitution version of the atonement.
One of the important reasons that penal substitution is flawed is that it is based upon someone setting the prices for each sin. Who sets the prices? God? Or, something above God? The challenge that you have is that Mormons are set in a thousand-year history of talking about justice in a penal substitution setting.So, when we use words like “justice demands” we do not get to choose how those words will be understood in the preconceptions and traditions of the reader. Thus, it is important to write in such a way that the reader is less likely to be confused by their preconceptions and will perceive what you are actually trying to say.
Alma tries to do this in Alma 42:1 when he says, “And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.” Alma defines justice in the context of his son’s question, “How can it be just for people to be punished?” Alma describes a system of natural consequence. There is no supreme God or Concept called “Justice.” Alma says that it is just for people who live in a manner inconsistent with how God lives to have to live somewhere else. This is how it is. Alma’s teaching is consistent with your post about truth and how we live. Unfortunately, it is easy as a reader to forget that this is the justice that Alma is talking about and then to misunderstand his later statements about justice. My OP was a poor attempt to draw attention to this.
The definition of justice is central to this who discussion. If justice is a system of penalties for violating laws then we get into trouble understanding the atonement. If justice is that we cannot return to God until we repent (learn from our transgressions and return to truth) then we get to a more productive discussion.
So, truth. This will be a bit of a side note relative to the OP, but is such an interesting topic! I like much of what you have said. I would offer one little idea to try to tighten up what you are saying. We live in a culture that is heavily influenced by a line of philosophy that argues about whether there are absolutes. Is truth an absolute? Many philosophers would argue that the most we can have is perception and that there is no absolute state of being to be called truth.
You quoted D&C 93:
23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
I think you said this, but I just want to be sure we are agreeing on this definition of truth. Truth is not the THINGS as they are, were, and are to come. Truth is the KNOWLEDGE of things as they are, were, and are to come. Who has this knowledge (=truth)? It is whoever is described by “Ye” at the start of verse 23. So, looking two verses prior:
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.
The speaker is Jesus Christ. He is speaking to those who are begotten through him to become the church of the Firstborn. Thus, members of the church of Firstborn were (existed) in the beginning with the Father (as you have described in your post). These beings were Spirit, even the Spirit of truth (knowledge of things as they are, were, and are to come). This is one of those definitions that God wants to protect. Jesus Christ says that anything more or less than this comes from the wicked one.
Not to go too far afield from the topic of this thread, Let’s look at Moses 6: 61 “Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.” Receving the Holy Ghost is an essential part of being in the church of the Firstborn. This comforter includes the truth of all things and has power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice and judgment.
My suggestion for the book is to avoid language in the presentation that plays in to preconceptions of a price for sin, or any notion of penal substitution. Instead, link the discussion firmly to the ideas that I know you espouse about the nature of God, and our relationship to God.
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| Re: Justice [message #3872 is a reply to message #3870] |
Sun, 28 June 2020 22:06 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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Gravity is part of the natural law that is eternal, as opposed to the law of carnal commandments which is administered by the Aaronic priesthood as part of the Preparatory Gospel also known as the Law of Moses.
Sin, justice, punishment are only valid concepts in the Telestial kingdom under the Preparatory gospel.
Once a person converts to Christ and repents of their sins, they move to the Terrestrial kingdom and their sins are not counted as evil against them anymore. But even though they are found guiltless, they are still subject to natural laws, like gravity.
Gravity was decreed before the foundation of the world by the God of Gods. It is irrevocably decreed as a natural result of our physical existence. As long as anything exists, the God of Gods exists and gravity will exist.
Seek truth,
Amonhi
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| Re: Justice [message #3881 is a reply to message #3873] |
Tue, 04 August 2020 15:40 |
Finrock
Messages: 12
Registered: December 2016
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Junior Member |
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Good exist. Good is real. Is there good without intelligence? Can good exist without intelligence? Another way to ask this...if there are no beings that are aware, that can comprehend then can the good exist? It seems to me you can't separate the two. The good requires intelligence.
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-Finrock
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| Re: Justice [message #3882 is a reply to message #3881] |
Tue, 04 August 2020 16:01 |
Finrock
Messages: 12
Registered: December 2016
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Junior Member |
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Good is all that matters. Being good fills you. Anything else leaves you empty. Good is about relationships. The good centers on how you treat life in all its forms. Justice exist on account of the good. Justice is about being allowed to reap what you sow. Its about freedom and respect. Someone or some entity should not prevent you from repeating the fruits of the seeds you have planted. When we prevent someone from repeating the good they sowed on account of our wickedness we have sinned. Mercy exist so that a being can choose to release you from the demands of Justice that were placed upon you when you violated the agency of freedom of sqid being. Nobody can release you from the demands of Justice for another not themselves. Jesus can forgive you for injustice you have dealt Him but not for injustice you have dealt another. At the same time if you have mercy and have repented with sincerity then the demand of Justice from another can't keep you bound forever. Because without mercy there can be no life. And so mercy is good and all good beings will have mercy. Those who demand Justice no matter what and do not forgive can't be good.
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-Finrock
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| Re: Justice [message #3906 is a reply to message #3884] |
Sun, 15 November 2020 16:06 |
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brrgilbert
Messages: 282
Registered: December 2012
Location: Nampa, Idaho
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Senior Member |
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Sir Isaac Newton identified three laws with respect to motion: 1. An object at rest will remain at rest unless acted upon by force. An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by a force. (When I was a child and thought as a child, my "criteria" for life was in the identification of independent "motion" brought about by "self" propulsion - an "inner" force acting upon an "external.") 2. Force = Mass X Acceleration and 3. With respect to "interaction" between objects, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
That third "law" having to do with interactions between objects is relevant to the discussion on JUSTICE. It is the very principle which causes a balance to level. The "energy" or "force" has to come to some state of equilibrium. The same discussion could be had with respect to "actions having consequences." There are "natural" consequences to our actions and then there are "perceptual" consequences to our actions. A moment should be spent addressing the difference. The "Natural" consequences are manifest "externally" into our dimensionality and the "perceptual" may or may not be dependent upon the "intelligence" that is offended or delighted. This speaks to "Absolute Truth" versus "Relative Truth." Absolute Truth "reality" deals with Heavenly Father acting "consciously" in HIS ether, (Light of Christ) and Relative Truth (internal, conscious reality) deals with each one of us acting in OUR OWN ether, (Light of Christ,) at a lesser intensity and inwardly, unless created and released externally. Karma is very much at work, here, in that the "energy" has to be dissipated in some way to bring back equilibrium to the system.
The very remarkable Savior, brought equilibrium by absorbing the negative energy without reflective vengeance, being true to His teachings of turning the other cheek and loving your enemies, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." Much energy was dissipated in the earthquake that proceeded His death and rent the inner veil in twain. He provided a way to escape the "compound in one," opposites - good and evil - bipolarity.
"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."
The Little Prince by St. Exupery
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