Dragon Messages: 499 Registered: June 2010 Location: Earth
Senior Member
Jules
we are still just acting on faith unless the Holy Ghost ratifies it and makes it TRUTH, and gives us that sure knowledge.
While studying Alma 32 for this week's Gospel Doctrine class, I noted Alma's definition of sure knowledge goes beyond a witness by the Holy Ghost. He says we must act on the knowledge we receive. I mention this, because I am pondering within on these meanings, and your post was the first I came across which used the common phrase/idea that once the Holy Ghost testifies to us, we KNOW.
Yet, as a God loving Christian, I believe only that which the Holy Ghost has told me. For instance, I believe Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet of God. The Holy Ghost has told me so, but I have never met the man. I have heard his words, and seen his image, but I have never stood in his presence and felt of his essence. I know he teaches good things, and leads the people well, because I have experienced these things.
I KNOW the Book of Mormon is true because I have studied its teachings and applied them in my life. I have seen the fruit of its words grow within me. If you ask any investigator whether they believe the Book of Mormon is true, those who have not received the witness of the Holy Ghost will say no, while those who have will say yes.
I guess where I stand today would be a witness from the Holy Ghost helps us to believe, or gives us cause to believe. It is only when we act on that witness when we grow from desire to believe, to belief, to knowledge, to perfect knowledge.
This concept is still solidifying in my mind, and I need feedback and input upon it.
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
The following information relates to the internal or mental processes that exist in intelligent beings which provide us with either progression or digression in eternity. Note that it was stated by the Prophet Joseph Smith that the mind is co-eternal with Heavenly Father. This means that it was not created or made, but may be enlarged or diminished with regard to knowledge and intelligence. The process of "enlargement" or progression resides in "uniting" or becoming one with others. The process of "diminishing" or digression resides in "scattering" or becoming individual without others. One denotes order and the other denotes chaos.
Given the principle of AGENCY. Each intelligence is given choice as an expression of DESIRE. Scripturally we are assured that Heavenly Father, the Greatest of All Intelligences, grants unto us according to our desires, whether for good or for bad; for order or for chaos; for growth or atrophy.
Eternal Principle: AGENCY
Heavenly Endowment: Knowledge of Truth (The Light of Christ.)
Derivative: DESIRE (Possessed by Each Intelligence)
Endowment: Confirmation (Temporal via Light of Christ)
(Spiritual via Holy Ghost)
KNOWLEDGE::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::IGNORANCE
Heavenly Endowment: Spirit of Christ-------Temporal Consequence: Spirit of the Devil
(Action)--------------------------------------(Reaction)
Obedience(Application)************************Disobedience(Rejection)
Some Notes for Consideration.
We are told in the Doctrine and Covenants that truth is a knowledge of things as they are, things as they were and things as they will be. Truth is a correct knowledge of the past, present and future. Man, as an intelligence, has been endowed mentally with the ability to deal with this truth. Man has a memory with which to record the truth of the past, senses and awareness to deal with the truth of the present, and imagination and inductive reasoning to deal with the truth of the future. This does not include the gifts of the Spirit such as prophecy which is an endowment of the Holy Ghost, rather than one of the Light of Christ.
Many of the things which are revealed to the world in general come by way of "grace" through the light of Christ. This is how we attain many of our "geniuses" that are "inspired" to discover temporal truth relative to our telestial kingdom. This constitutes knowledge, as well, though it hasn't been confirmed by the Holy Ghost. Usually it is confirmed by the Scientific Method, which is nothing more than the law of witnesses. (If I can do this at point A by this procedure and you can do the same thing at point B by the same procedure, it must be true! Truth by repeatability.)
Because we have an "external life" and an "internal life;" one being physical and the other being mental, it is necessary to realize that truth can have absolute and relative components. It is absolute with regard to the external laws that govern intelligences, but relative to the perceptions that an intelligence has. I think that in this regard, it is difficult to compare ourselves with others. Our relative truths vary distinctly from one another. Our personalities vary from one another. I am grateful that Heavenly Father is the Judge of such things - taking relative and absolute truths into account. Perceptions are reality or truth, but there is also truth which is independent of perceptions that can be universally applied.
In another thread the veil was discussed relative to what it is. It was stated therein that the veil consisted of the flesh. I believe this to be true. Based upon some near-death experiences, it would appear that after the dissolution of the flesh; body; or veil, the thoughts of the mind are no longer veiled. This infers some interesting things: 1.) communication proceeds as thoughts or telepathy; 2.) our thoughts are broadcast and no longer hidden; 3.) we know as we are known; and 4.) all truth will be revealed; absolute, as well as relative.
"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
The "Scientific Method" involves the "independent" witness of having reached the same conclusion at a different location for confirmation. As indicated, there must be AT LEAST two, "independent" witnesses that harmonize or attain "resonance."
"Personal" witnesses involve "in-sight" or awareness of thought and feeling. Two things must occur in order to attain "revelation:" there must be "enlightenment" within the mind AND there must be "comforting" within the heart. When this is experienced, there is "resonance" and "certainty," anything else is "stupor, doubt or questioning." It is important to understand that "enlightenment" of the mind, by itself, comes via the "Light of Christ" and does not necessarily involve the "feeling component" of the Spirit. Feelings of "comfort" without the accompanying "revelation" within the mind, may be just that - comfort to let you know that things are going to be alright. DO NOT make the "leap" of "confirmation" when there is just ONE internal witness. Revelation, if it IS that, involves the harmony; resonance between thought and feeling - with positive confirmation.
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
We will be talking about the "REAL" internal components of a radio that make it possible to attain "tuning," but what is important about the analogy is in understanding that at anytime, we can hear from The Son or The Father. Generally and most of the time, the HOLY GHOST, as a third member of the Godhood, will speak to us via "The Light of Christ" to our conscience. It will come into our minds, like "telepathy" in the form of "thoughts" from out of the wilderness. The message may be, initially, about what is good and what is bad; guiding us to avoid situations that are detrimental to our physical or spiritual well being. As you attune yourself to what has been called, "the still, small voice" and with practice, it can become so very much more. You will recognize it as your own "internal" voice because you are familiar with it, but I can assure you that in tracing it to origin - you cannot. It just comes out of, as it were, nowhere. In accordance with scripture, it will be in your own language and according to your own understanding:
Quote:
2 Nephi 31:
3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.
and in another place:
Quote:
Doctrine and Covenants 88:
6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;
9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;
10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space--
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.
and I should, also, add:
Quote:
Moroni 7:
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the alight of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
As in all things, a person must "grow up" unto revelation. To begin, the best way is to learn to ask simple "yes" or "no" questions. For example, "Is the Book of Mormon true?" (God will not reveal things in a "vacuum" without study, exposure or knowledge - you have to "experiment on the word," first, to taste its fruit. See Alma 32 in the Book of Mormon.) Accordingly, if you are "open" and not "closed" by being sceptical, (that means having "real" intent,) He will manifest the truth of something to you by the power of the Holy Ghost . . . the reception of some very special "light."
With practice, questions can be asked beginning with, "What should I do?" Note that initially you heard the voice of your conscience or the "Light of Christ" telling you "what you shouldn't do." (Those are "general broadcasts" over the air waves . . . ) You will be directed in your efforts about how to treat others and being of service to those around you.
The next "milestone" in receiving revelation is in asking "What could I do?" In this, you will be directed to be of service, (an act of showing love,) to complete strangers.
And, of course, there is the question, "What do I lack, yet, to comply with what YOU want me to be, Father?" ("Not my will, but thine be done.")
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
Now, not everyone is going to understand the electrical schematic to a "Tank Circuit." That isn't the important thing. The important thing to know is that "All things testify of God's hands being present in the guidance for good." Technology is good IF used as Heavenly Father intended - that it not be "worshiped" or used to do evil.
There are two things used in the "circuit" that are analogous to the "mind" and the "heart." A thing called a "capacitor" is like the "mind" and a thing called an "inductor" is like the "heart." (As an exercise, I should like you to ponder the implications of those names and tell me that Heavenly Father wasn't involved! Do you have the capacity to be convicted, yet? )
The picture that follows will illustrate to you that there is something very fascinating about light; having components within itself that operate on those two "electronic thingys," that themselves, are like thoughts (direction) and feelings (attraction or repulsion;) "charge" and "current."
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
If you are interested in the implications of this information, I would invite you to the "Deep Doctrine" portion of this forum.
Be it known, that with sufficient experience - experimenting upon the "Word," you can grow up unto receiving wonderful and great "revelations" for the benefit of yourself and others. The initial "desire" to believe can sprout up unto a very special tree having very delicious fruit of knowledge, which this forum is all about. May God bless you to do so! B.
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
The "Symmetry" of applying opposites; Is it still true??
Quote:
Doctrine and Covenants 130:
18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.
Whatever principle of "stupidity" we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
And if a person gains more "ignorance" and "stupidity" in this life through his "slothfulness" and "disobedience" than another, he will have so much the "disadvantage" in the world to come.
Quote:
Alma 34:
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
Your "spirit" consists of what is "within." What do you spend your thoughts, (of the mind or "intellect;" QUANTITY) on: Yourself, others, things, or ideas? What are your feelings about, (of the heart in attraction or repulsion; QUALITY) in that which occupies your awareness; consciousness? Are you "positive" or are you "negative?" Be "mindful" of what you are.
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
Mending a Crooked Seem
I looked upon a scene surreal,
A seam sewn crooked made appeal.
From the angle I saw; the one I took,
Beckoned me take another look.
To behold its skew, was where I came from,
To straighten it out - I had to move some.
It seemed to be that its perspective to see
Depends upon the place where I find me.
Well, if its crooked, now, I don't know
I have several positions that won't show.
Now that I can write a book,
I don't want to take another look.
It is what it is, and I can't tell
Maybe I can't see very well?
In the end, does it really matter?
What is the point to all this chatter?
I guess that things aren't always as they seem,
We get caught up in our own little dream.
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
The establishment of TRUTH is based upon the reception of independent witness that only amounts to "evidence" when corroborated and accepted. If the evidence is compelling and believed, it constitutes proof. Proof cannot be ascertained by that which is doubted. The "Receptor" of evidence determines veracity in all cases. One must answer for themselves.
"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
I posted this earlier and I am going to repeat it, again because I believe that it is important. Because of "Relative Truth," we create our own world; our own "Universe," as it were. To understand this, in Quantum Physics, there is given a "Multiverse" or "Multi-World" concept that is explained in the YouTube video, below.
There is Absolute Truth and there is "relative" truth. Absolute Truth is the reality that exists independently of ourselves and "relative" truth is completely dependent upon each individual. It has been said that "perception is reality," meaning that a person's perception is their "internal" truth . . . and that is correct. We create a "universe" within our minds and hearts. It is in operation when we are conscious; aware. However . . . there is an "Absolute Truth;" a "REAL" Universe; a "REAL" World that operates independently of our own. It operates regardless of whether we are conscious or not. For example: Gravity will operate upon the unconscious mind . . . independently of perception. Among some other things, this should provide you with a clue as to who created this "REAL" and "Independent" World/Universe that operates upon all of us. Too, it should provide you with a clue as to the nature of the "multiverse" and the basis for its "origins." It exists within our minds. We will be whole when our "world" and "universe" becomes the same as God's World and God's Universe; we become ONE. We will know as we are known and "TRUTH" will be Absolute and not "relative."
My world AND universe is converging with God's. The relevant information as to the reality of TRUTH resides in the "consciousness" of God and He is the "Absolute Source." In our "relative" world, the "Cat" is in all possible states and someone, instead of opening and revealing the contents of the box, ends up opening a can of worms when their truth is proclaimed as THE truth.
(In keeping with the theme, is it "worm hole" or "worm whole?")
"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
Quote:
"Man may deceive his fellow men, deception may follow deception, and the children of the wicked one may have power to seduce the foolish and untaught; till naught but fiction feeds the many, and the fruit of falsehood carries in its current the giddy to the grave."
― Joseph Smith Jr.
Quote:
"A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God."
― Joseph Smith Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
Quote:
"And if the question is asked, how were they to obtain the knowledge of God? (for there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him -- knowledge implies more than faith. And notice, that all things that pertain to life and godliness were given through the knowledge of God) the answer is given -- through faith they were to obtain this knowledge; and, having power by faith to obtain the knowledge of God, they could with it obtain all other things which pertain to life and godliness."
― Joseph Smith Jr., Lectures on Faith
Quote:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (King Follett Discourse) "
― Joseph Smith Jr.
Quote:
"The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
― Joseph Smith Jr.
Quote:
"A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus."
― Joseph Smith
Quote:
"For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round."
― Joseph Smith Jr., The Book of Mormon
Quote:
"The things of God are of deep import and time and experience and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind O man if thou wilt lead a soul into salvation must search into and contemplate the darkest abyss and the broad expanse of eternity, thou must commune with God." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 3, p. 295.)
The first step in "enlightenment" is to "hunger and thirst for knowledge." In due course, this will change and effect your behavior and you will "hunger and thirst for righteousness." Initially it is by virtue of the "Light of Christ," subsequently followed by the "Spirit of Christ." 'Knowing without "doing" is the same as not knowing.' Ignorance will not save you.
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
There are "processes" along the "Straight and Narrow Path" that leads to "Exaltation." If we are led by "thought," then the process is a mental one . . . of the "mind." If we are led by "feeling," then the process is an emotional one . . . of the "heart." Since Heavenly Father utilizes at least 2 witnesses to establish His every "Word," it behooves us to "recognize" what that looks like. "RECOGNITION" for you may entail "cognition," if you tend to be more "mental," or "attractive," if you tend to be more "feel."
The "ideal" of this "growth" or "progression" process is to use all of your consciousness; thoughts and feelings; mind and heart; spirit being. Upon the "internal recognition" of these "revelatory experiences," implementation is the process of taking that which has been "created inside" and manifesting it into reality or making it real by including the "soul" effort - involving Heart, Might, Mind and Strength. When in combination and totality, the result is a "consecrated service of empathy" call "Christ Like Love" or Charity.
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
And so . . . It is incumbent upon us to "recognize" some things that have been established and identified by Heavenly Father as "internal" motivations to allow us to "move forward" into the future. FAITH for THINKERS and HOPE for FEELERS.
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
Progression comes when we "grasp" or "recognize" more in the reception of REVELATION. It is that "AH HAH" moment that I am attempting to expedite and quicken for you. The sooner we are "running on all cylinders" the quicker will we be able to accomplish Heavenly Father's and the Savior's objectives for this world . . . and so without any further adieu:
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
And so, what is it that gets you from here to "THERE?" EXPERIENCE. This is a more inclusive view of "Jacob's Ladder." A principle is perfected when we are able to offer that principle in service for another . . . and GOD, it is called LOVE or Charity. Then we begin another "cycle" of "perfecting" what we "recognize" that we need to.
"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
It is very interesting to me that "digression" involves the opposites to the foregoing "spiral" staircase and ends up causing those who are on that "ride" to "spiral down." The opposite of Faith is FEAR. The opposite of Hope is DESPAIR. The opposite of Love is HATE. Furthermore, those who are "mental" and live in their heads, are typically halted and turned around by an emotional component called FEAR which is of the Heart. Those who are "emotional" and live in their hearts, are typically halted and turned around by an intellectual component called "trust," another name for "FAITH" which is of the Mind. (That breaking of confidence leads to despair - Hope's opposite, which "breaking of confidence" or loss of trust may be "in themselves" or "another.") In either case, the individual gets caught in the PAST, rather than being able to move on. Those who get caught in the PRESENT are those who are hampered by "Analysis Paralysis" in attempting to unravel perception.
Quote:
"By proving contraries, truth is made manifest."
― Joseph Smith Jr.
"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."
brrgilbert Messages: 282 Registered: December 2012 Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member
It has been shared that the "still small voice" can become a fountain springing up unto eternal life by virtue of the "shoulds," (works of commission) and "coulds," (works of omission.) There are a couple of more "steps" that present themselves in our "maturing" in revelation.
Quote:
Doctrine and Covenants 46:
7 But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.
Quote:
Doctrine and Covenants 58: 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.
. . . and so, it behooves us to grow in understanding and maturity as to how the Lord would have us proceed. The Book of Mormon contains the key to further growth and maturity in our "supplication:"
Quote:
2 Nephi 32:
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.
In "full" consecration, our supplication will take the following form:
"But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto Himself, that thy performance may be for the welfare of His soul and Zion." (Not my will, but thine be done!)
"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."
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) You will be directed in your efforts about how to treat others and being of service to those around you. 
Do you have the capacity to be convicted, yet? 
)
