Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? (Recent Discoveries of Ancient Scripture...)
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #746 is a reply to message #626] |
Sat, 28 July 2012 22:27   |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Dragon wrote on Sun, 08 July 2012 00:35 Scripture is anything which is the word of God. Canonized Scripture is a small subset of scripture which the church has approved and accepted as scripture. The rest of scripture is called apocryphal writings, which contain some scripture, and some philosophies of men mingled with scripture. By following the Spirit, we can learn the difference. All scripture is for the edification of all.
A question then. Is the Rod of Iron all scripture, or only the canonized scripture?
The Iron Rod is the Word of God as spoken directly to you by God. Scripture is anything that is witnessed by the spirit which is the voice of God to you. Anything that is NOT witnessed by the spirit to you personally is the philosophies of men mingled with scripture no matter who says says it, by what authority they speak it, or were you read it and regardless of who voted to make it cannon. Without the witness of the spirit, it is not to be considered scripture or the word of God to you. But No Matter Who says it, or were you read it, if the spirit ratifies it, then it is scripture and the word of God to you.
I have found scripture in magazines, books, shows, websites, advertisements and sources which would seem unlikely sources of Gods word.
We tend to like to draw bounds and lines around what God can do, how he can speak and what who he will use to do his work. God is boundless and so are his methods. Be open to the spirit and you will find scripture everywhere you turn your attention.
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #748 is a reply to message #746] |
Sun, 29 July 2012 00:45 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Amonhi,
This sounds like a wonderful reply. The only problem it creates is it destroys the image of what the Rod of Iron is supposed to be about. The Rod of Iron, as presented by the Church, is a relatively safe path through the mists of darkness and filthy river and leads safely to the Tree of Life. It is so envisioned because anyone can follow it, and it is thought everyone can take the same path. The idea is nice, and fits well into the Mormon Culture of 'The Thinking is Done for Us Already.'
If the Rod of Iron is the Word of God as ratified by the Spirit, then the rod is not as fixed in place as people imagine a rod of iron to be.
Well, I suppose we'll have to take a step back and watch the process of a new convert following the Iron Rod. First they gain a testimony of Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon. Right there we have a book of scripture which is accepted first as a whole, and later as individual chapters and verses. Can the Book of Mormon on its own get us to the Tree of Life? By Amonhi's answer I would say no. It will get us closer to God than any other book, but will not get us the whole way.
What does a convert gain a testimony of next? The Bible, insofar as it is translated correctly. Well, now we have built into the instructions a need for discernment. Some parts, verses, philosophies, or even whole books may not be inspired. By this statement, the whole Bible seems the same as the apocryphal writings.
So what does the convert have now? One book of scripture firmly fixed, and another less firmly fixed. From here on out, things get more and more fuzzy. We add in the D&C, the PoGP, Conference Talks, Hymns, Patriarchal Blessings, Talks in Church, Sunday School Lessons, The Testimony of Mary Magdalene, etc.
I am left to conclude then, that we should study all of the above at the time when we have enough discernment to know what in it is scripture. What books should be studied as scripture? Every book the Spirit leads us to study!
- Dragon
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #755 is a reply to message #748] |
Sun, 29 July 2012 11:28 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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"Dragon"This sounds like a wonderful reply. The only problem it creates is it destroys the image of what the Rod of Iron is supposed to be about. The Rod of Iron, as presented by the Church, is a relatively safe path through the mists of darkness and filthy river and leads safely to the Tree of Life. It is so envisioned because anyone can follow it, and it is thought everyone can take the same path. The idea is nice, and fits well into the Mormon Culture of 'The Thinking is Done for Us Already.'
LOL, yeah, it sounds Utopian doesn't it. The thing to remember is that nobody is supposed to have joined the church without having received a number of personal revelations:
- God Exists
- Jesus Christ is the savior
- The Book of Mormon is True
- The Church is the path they should take
Every member of the church has experienced this process to some degree prior to being baptized. They relied entirely on their own revelation and spirituality to get them into the church. Then all of the sudden that isn't good enough to get them to God. We start to tell discredit the very process and spirituality that got them into the church.
Now, the question is, "Does the Iron Rod as taught by the church , "Scriptures and prophets" work to lead people down the straight and narrow path that leads to the fruit tree/love of God and eternal life.
I know hundreds of gospel scholars, religion teachers, Bishops & stake Presidents who rely on the word of God to others. They rely on the word of God to ancient prophets as recorded in the scriptures and they rely on the words of God from modern prophets and apostles. But none of these come to the tree and fruit which is to experience God for themselves except they are willing to get their own revelation and follow the word of God to them directly. (Even if that means having a growing testimony from God of the scriptures and prophets teachings.)
Now ask anyone who has received their C&E if they did not receive it by personal revelation which comes to be trusted over time by practice.
"Dragon"If the Rod of Iron is the Word of God as ratified by the Spirit, then the rod is not as fixed in place as people imagine a rod of iron to be.
This is also the Rock on which if we build, we are promised we cannot fall. Personal revelation and spiritual experience is the ONLY Firm foundation. When everything around us falls, our faith on it falls with it. But we can never deny our personal revelation/experience with the spiritual. If we follow our personal revelation to the source of all good things, it will lead us the fruit which is most precious above all other fruits. (We will also know that as we walk the path closer to the source, following the rod, we will have reassurances along the way which are mini fruits that confirm our direction.
"Dragon"Well, I suppose we'll have to take a step back and watch the process of a new convert following the Iron Rod. First they gain a testimony of Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon. Right there we have a book of scripture which is accepted first as a whole, and later as individual chapters and verses. Can the Book of Mormon on its own get us to the Tree of Life? By Amonhi's answer I would say no. It will get us closer to God than any other book, but will not get us the whole way.
Yes, did you see the underlining processes of gaining personal revelation that attends every step. Even reading the scriptures as you said, "requires personal revelation" to understand them correctly and get scripture out of the scriptures. At every step of great growth, we find personal revelation.
The word of God that IS the iron rod is the word of God to YOU personally, not the word of God to anyone else.
Also, did you notice that Lehi was lost in the mist of darkness not having held on to the rod because he followed "a man
Quote: 5 And it came to pass that I saw a man, and he was dressed in a white robe; and he came and stood before me.
6 And it came to pass that he spake unto me, and bade me follow him.
7 And it came to pass that as I followed him I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste. - 1Ne. 8:5-7
No matter what man we follow, we enter into a dark a dreary waste.
Quote:President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds,..." -TotPJS, Section Five 1842-43, p.237
Joseph says they were depending on the prophet and had departed from the Lord and so were darkened in their minds. This is the darkness of Lehi's dream.
Joseph used Ezekiel 14 as the foundation for his talk. It just so hapens that this chapter is all about this very topic.
Quote:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God.
When a prophet becomes so corrupt that he begins to lead the people toward himself, (saying follow me, like the man in Lehi's Dream), rather than toward God, (prayer and personal Revelation), then God will ensure that the prophet becomes deceived so that the people who follow the prophet become deceived and they all fall. In this way the people will learn to stop relying on the prophet and go to God directly, "That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me."
After following the man and finding that following the man caused him to be in darkness, Lehi prayed and that alone lifted the darkness so that he could see clearly for himself.
Quote: 9 And it came to pass after I had prayed unto the Lord I beheld a large and spacious field.
10 And it came to pass that I beheld a tree, whose fruit was desirable to make one happy.
The field he saw was the same field he was wandering in while in darkness. He hadn't moved from the darkness, the darkness moved from him. This is why the Lord gave the D&C with the following preface:
Quote: 19 The aweak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh--
20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;
This is the True Rod of Iron, firm and fixed as the rock on which we should build. Something we can really hold on to without it falling apart in our hands like faith on someone else's revelation.
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #760 is a reply to message #758] |
Sun, 29 July 2012 16:14 |
zephyr
Messages: 129
Registered: May 2012
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Senior Member |
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I would like to comment on a few items.
1. New converts. I was a convert to the church (I plan on posting my story later), and I came in through personal revelation alone. I experienced the mighty change of heart while reading the Book of Mormon in secret. In the short time between baptism (age 17) and my mission, I had experiences that were similar to the experiences of prophets in the scriptures. Had I continued with this spirit, my life would have been much more powerful and rich. However, in a short time, my focus switched from the pure faith and revelation I experienced as a new member to a reliance on others. That was my undoing for quite some time. Nothing serious wrong, just a lack of direction and a lessening of spirituality.
2. The Rod of Iron. The rod of iron is the word of God. That includes anything that has proceeded out of His mouth and anything that will. Notice in the vision/dream the people held directly to the rod, individually. They did not hold on to others who were holding on to the rod. Everyone must travel a path to the tree. Everyone must avoid the forbidden paths, and everyone must hold to the rod when the mists of darkness envelop them. In that sense, it is fixed for everyone, even though there will be variation on the content of the mists, or the placing of the forbidden paths. We all must travel the path from where we are to the tree. Interestingly, this is the same tree that Alma speaks of in Alma 32.
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #761 is a reply to message #748] |
Sun, 29 July 2012 18:15 |
Taliesin
Messages: 7
Registered: June 2012
Location: The Midwest
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Junior Member |
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Hi Dragon (and all others watching this thread) -
You said:
This sounds like a wonderful reply. The only problem it creates is it destroys the image of what the Rod of Iron is supposed to be about. The Rod of Iron, as presented by the Church, is a relatively safe path through the mists of darkness and filthy river and leads safely to the Tree of Life. It is so envisioned because anyone can follow it, and it is thought everyone can take the same path. The idea is nice, and fits well into the Mormon Culture of 'The Thinking is Done for Us Already.'
Here are some of my thoughts, for whatever they are worth.
The account of the vision of the iron rod and the tree of life makes it seem as if the rod were a banister, but it's not entirely clear. However, in every other passage of the scriptures that talk about a rod, they talk about a rod that you can hold in your hand, such as the rod that Laman used to beat Nephi, or the rod (of a king!) in Psalm 23 that comforts. Perhaps in the vision every one gets their own "rod" that leads them to The Tree.
When I think of an iron rod, I think of a measuring stick. We often hear about compasses and squares - instruments of an architect or master builder - being paired together. If a third instrument were to be included, it would be a measuring stick.
Taliesin
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #798 is a reply to message #304] |
Wed, 01 August 2012 09:29 |
mormonhah
Messages: 11
Registered: July 2012
Location: SLC
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Junior Member |
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To all who have contributed to the above thread:
I have a limited library and limited funds to purchase some of the early church books that I would love to read. I also notice that the CoJCoL-dS does not have the History of the Church online.
I spoke recently with Richard Turley, LDS Church Historian about his role as historian, asked him if his was a calling (from God) or he was in a paid position. I was surprised to learn that he has never received any kind of a blessing or setting-apart for his position and that he was a "full-time employee" in his own words.
I bring this up because I have read some history and KNOW through the Spirit that it has been altered or distorted. I do not know where to find original information from Joseph Smith and am even now suspect of the Joseph Smith Papers as I do not know whether or not they have been compromised.
I see the Bible (KJV), the Book of Mormon, the PoGP, D&C, and even other non-canonized scripture as having been composed by men of God and charged with a holy responsibility. How are we to know that the scriptures that will eventually come out for our posterity are going to be accurate because the one keeping records is not ordained of God? Are we going to rely on the angels in heaven for that sacred responsibility to get it right?
I want to find as much accurate info as possible because I sense my time on this earth is short. Is it only up to me to weed out the false?
If I had not actually got into this work and been called of God, I would back out. But I cannot back out: I have no doubt of the truth.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #802 is a reply to message #798] |
Thu, 02 August 2012 04:52 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Mormonhah,
A post you might enjoy is found HERE in which I relate following the Spirit to using a compass.
The way your question translates to me is: Am I alone in my journey to exaltation? The answer, based on the above, is yes, and no.
NO: At the beginning phase of our journey, we accept what others have said, such as our parents, friends, church leaders, scriptures, etc. These are generally correct and while we learn the basics of the gospel, They generally point in the right direction.
YES: At some point in our journey we must take responsibility for every action and belief. If we rely on what someone else has said, there is the possibility they were wrong, or we misinterpreted their words, or that their words do not apply in our situation. So it is up to us to verify everything with the Spirit.
As described above, the place to start is with the Book of Mormon. It is the most correct of any book, but is not perfect. As we read it, we should feel the Spirit and learn how to feel that Spirit more easily. We can then expand what we read to include more and more questionable sources, but only if our spiritual radio can stay dialed in. If we spend all our time wrestling with the Spirit to determine if each sentence has been changed or mistranslated, the book is beyond our ability to understand. So it is for most Church members with the apocryphal writings, such as The Book of Enoch (the leader of the city of Enoch). His take on predeluvian history would not be well accepted in sacrament meeting. But Jesus has told us that when we are prepared to read these books with discernment, they are valuable to study.
Your question about the veracity of historical books by and about Joseph Smith is not much different. It won't be easy to find someone else who is as focused as you are on discovering the truth from the lies in such papers. Anyone deriding the authenticity of those papers is treated like a heretic by Mormon culture. Hence, where could they share their insight with like-minded people?
This forum provides just such a place, though discussion of your particular topic has not previously arisen. This forum has discussed many topics which some see as taboo. Thus this forum has become a resource for us to share our insights on things. Yet it is still up to each of us verify the truth of what others are saying. Hopefully, most of the posts on this site are filled with nuggets of knowledge which uplift those who read them.
- Dragon
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #814 is a reply to message #802] |
Fri, 03 August 2012 22:27 |
kenh
Messages: 62
Registered: June 2012
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Member |
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I agree with what Amonhi stated in his post. If I may add the following.
One of my axioms is,"Never assume anything about anything, only accept that which is truth. And truth can only be known, comprehended and lived by the power of the Holy Ghost."
Even though each and every principle and doctrine is important for each of us to know to be true and live to reap the great and glorious blessings that obedience brings, the one principle that is the one that brings me the strength and courage to live the other principles of truth is the principle of revelation from God. The blessings that I have received from God have come to me by His grace and mercy and not based upon anything that I feel that I have earned on my own. But knowing that God reveals His will and truths through divine revelations from Him through the power of the Holy Ghost is the greatest blessing in my life.
When I was investigating the church at 14 ½ years old, I was determined to know through the Holy Ghost that each and every doctrine and principle that was presented to me was true through the power of the Holy Ghost before I would commit to being baptized. I was taught what to expect as a Holy Ghost answer to sincere prayer, the burning in my bosom and a peaceful, joyous feeling that would confirm to me that what I had been praying about was from God and thus true. As I progressed in the discussions I asked many questions. I took what I had been given to read and what I was told to be true and studied it out in my mind and prayed fervently to God to know that what I had been given was in fact divine truth. Each and every doctrine and principle was confirmed to me by the power of the Holy Ghost. I then was baptized with that understanding given to me by God.
I had come to know that when we sincerely desire, seek, and ask to come to know truth, we will find it. God is true to His word every time! Personal revelation from God does happen and when it does, it is a wonderful miracle and is the basis of my testimony, so that no matter happens in the days to come, my testimony is built upon a sure foundation from God and not man and that it will see me through. God gets all the praise and glory forevermore!
Thank you all for this wonderful discussion.
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #1910 is a reply to message #304] |
Fri, 11 January 2013 10:43 |
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rdwhitaker
Messages: 118
Registered: December 2012
Location: Vancouver, Washington
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Senior Member |
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What's interesting to me about this thread, is that even though the King James version of the Bible is part of our canon, we openly recognize that it is not translated correctly. The Joseph Smith translation improved upon some of its errors, but I suspect even after that there is simply too much still missing or changed in it to bring it up to the level of purity we have in the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants.
I fear too many LDS members look at "scripture" as being a closed set of doctrine and thus close their minds to anything outside of it. Its too much of a "catechism" mentality -- treating the accepted works as spiritual Lego blocks that are used to build a precise, well defined belief system. Those building blocks are not meant to construct a spiritual ceiling, but to build a set of stairs. The closed attitude goes completely against the spirit of current revelation by living prophets, seers and revelators, and against the personal mission of the Holy Ghost in each of our lives.
I now view the scriptures as being the core of correct doctrines that are necessary and sufficient to get us started in the right direction. Other ancient books are like bonus gifts, like finding spiritual coins in the seat cushions of the Gospel. They are nice, but not essential. The scriptures we have are not meant to be the full, complete, nothing else to be learned, corpus of all Gospel knowledge.
Like so much else in this Fallen world, we only get to dabble in the slightest fragments of pure Truth, and our test is to learn how to follow that golden thread to achieve greater truths. We know there are missing books of scriptures. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon refer to them, so those writers apparently trusted them well. There are missing scriptures (to us) of what the Lord has revealed to the lost tribes of Israel. There is the Book of Enoch, of which we only have fragments. If we had it in its purity, there's no doubt it would be as good of scripture as anything else. There are the sealed portions of the Book of Mormon yet to be learned. There are books that prophets wrote and then were instructed to immediately seal up.
I view all of the scriptures, canonical and others, as being pointers to a better way -- the more sure word of prophecy. This is the beauty of the message from Nephi, that I keep turning to and enjoying more and more:
"Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do." 2 Nephi 32:6
The beauty of this instruction is it tells us to use all of the means given to us to gain the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then we follow the Holy Ghost to where He leads us. He leads us to Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ manifests Himself to us in the flesh, then we have pure, complete, eternal scripture available to us: The words of God to us personally. That was the original source of the written scriptures we have today. We need to strive to get to the original source for ourselves. Then we may grow to a perfect knowledge, a perfect unity of faith, and all other things will be placed in their proper order and their proper perspective.
Ryan
Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #1913 is a reply to message #1910] |
Fri, 11 January 2013 12:39 |
mormonhah
Messages: 11
Registered: July 2012
Location: SLC
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Junior Member |
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In no place anywhere in all of the scriptures does God ever refer to the serpent as wise and worthy of emulation by His children. Joseph Smith fixed Matthew in this regard from wise as a serpent to wise as a servant. (A trusted servant sees everything, notices everything, knows what goes on in the masters house, and is given decision making authority as a member of the household.)
We can find the restored original word servant in the Joseph Smith translation of Matthew which was kept pure by the reorganized church in the wilderness. But somewhere along the line when the Doctrine and Covenants came west D&C 111:11 was changed back to wise as a "serpent" again.
Although I don't have the time to track exactly where this happened and who had a hand in it, it seems logical that Joseph would not have made the distinct effort to correct it in the King James NT, and then present the word serpent instead of servant as a direct revelation coming from the mouth of the Lord in 1836. Something's fishy.
It appears that here is direct evidence of tampering with the Doctrine and Covenants up near the organizational headwaters of the priesthood that came west. It may be that whoever (in Salt Lake) made the official change to serpent did not realize that the Joseph Smith Translation (which was held back with Emma) would eventually surface to shine light on the intentional deception. It is inconceivable that all the men professing to be prophets of God, and the doctors of divinity hatched from BYU over the years would not have caught this and rectified it. So yes, it is a big deal.
That this has not been brought to the attention of the church, to the missionaries who are out on the front lines trying to work daily in the King James, or in the world wide lesson material emanating from the church correlation committee is sad, but not surprising to me.
To realize that serpents of all sizes are depicted all over the walls in the masonic temple, and that every quad in the hands of active LDS church members all over the world, translated into every possible earthly language has the Lord Jesus Christ saying in two places that the serpent is an example of wisdom to be emulated - this just makes my spirit sick, and my heart heavy.
Joseph Smith ran out of time before he could fix everything in the King James that needed restoration. Obviously the Masons had their filth and corruption all over the entire book, but the things Joseph did touch are therefore absolutely imperative for us to know, and have.
If I had not actually got into this work and been called of God, I would back out. But I cannot back out: I have no doubt of the truth.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
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| Re: What Books Should be Studied as Scripture? [message #3635 is a reply to message #1913] |
Mon, 01 October 2018 10:20 |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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Senior Member |
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There have been several thousand changes to the Doctrine and covenants, adds, deletes and rewording.
If you compare the original Book of Commandments revelations as Given by the Lord to the 1840 addition of the Doctrine and covenants, you'll find that some sections doubled in size from the original revelations.
Some changes were made by Joseph and others by Brigham Young.
The Church history changes from the original documents to the official church history presented to members is also interesting. It was intentional changing of history and even doctrine taught by Joseph Smith. Direct quotes from Joseph were changed so they said the exact opposite of what Joseph actually said. In their journals they wrote things like, spent the day revising church history.
Peace,
Amonhi
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