Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » The Possibility of Reincarnation (Does Church Doctrine allow for the existence of Reincarnation?)
| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1918 is a reply to message #1908] |
Fri, 11 January 2013 20:41   |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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RDWhitaker,
It is clear you have already decided not to believe in reincarnation no matter what I say. However, For the sake of others, I feel I must clarify. If a child is born in the covenant to faithful parents, and dies before the age of accountability, Church Doctrine states they will receive exaltation. Thus there would be no need to be reborn, but would in fact be returned to that family in the Millennium in the form they died.
What I am saying if if there is a person who leaves this life worthy of any glory short of the highest degree of glory, God may be willing to give them another chance. This does not annul, negate, or diminish the power of the atonement. You refer to life as a test of memory. But that is not the kind of test we are taking. We are working to change our very nature, as I have stated before. If you are a father, you should know beings come into this life with their own personality. This is a way of saying their nature is imprinted on the body, and they work to improve their nature during their whole life. If a person's nature is improved when they leave this life, but not enough for exaltation, would they not enter their next life with an improved nature? That is, assuming they get one.
I can only say this so many ways. If my previous posts have not given you enough to consider, ask a new question.
- Dragon
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1993 is a reply to message #259] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 06:01 |
Called to Serve
Messages: 39
Registered: December 2012
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Member |
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I am certain of the validity of this doctrine because the Spirit testified of it to me. I also believe that it does, in fact, include multiple mortal probations on this earth. I don't know how to interpret scriptures that seem to say otherwise. I've left that all to God to explain to me when He sees fit.
I have developed a theory, which I will admit is purely opinion, as I've pondered the implications of this doctrine and also certain quotes that I have read that have been impressed upon my mind. The quotes in question refer to the idea that we are gods. There are prophets and others who have specifically stated that we are gods. They say this in this way, not in that we can become gods. And so, taking that into consideration with the idea that time for Heavenly Father in the eternities is all inclusive, I have wondered if in fact, all of us are truly gods, and have been and always will be, just as our Father has always been God and always will be.
I am speaking of the idea of a cycle in which we go through the same eternal round again and again. Where we go from being powerful beings like our Father to infants of spirituality again and again. We go through this process for the same reason we sleep, wake, eat, play, and work in cycles every day. It is food for our beings and we would die if we stopped the cycle for any significant amount of time.
It seems to me that either we are eternal or we are not. We are gods or we are not. How can we progress from being one type of being to another throughout "eternity" where time is all inclusive? We must be what we are or not.
That is the idea that has come to me as I've pondered this doctrine and related ideas. I do not think life, eternal or mortal, is anything like we assume as we live out our "time" here on earth in a linear fashion. I think our Father in Heaven sees it all from a much higher perspective and our understanding is as that of little children who come up with the most ridiculous ideas sometimes as they try to make sense of the world and of the things they are being told.
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1994 is a reply to message #259] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 09:30 |
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rdwhitaker
Messages: 118
Registered: December 2012
Location: Vancouver, Washington
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Senior Member |
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I purchased the book "The Doctrine of Eternal Lives" and started reading it. The more I read, the more it became apparent to me that it was trying to insinuate false doctrine. It committed the same errors we preach against many other churches for doing - wresting the scriptures to try to make them say something they do not. The scriptures say "The Father and I are one." Many churches use that as proof positive that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one being. The scriptures say "God is spirit". They say that is proof positive that God does not have a corporeal body. I see the author of this book doing exactly the same thing. Just because a quote 'could' mean something doesn't mean it actually does. In many instances the reader has to make some real stretches to fit the quote into the meaning the author intends us to grasp. Too far in my opinion. I ended up throwing the book away. It left too dark an impression on my mind.
I found a book review by someone on latterdaycommentary.com that I liked. http://latterdaycommentary.com/2012/06/24/the-doctrine-of-eternal-lives/ One part from it says,
"A Dangerous and Damning Belief
"Why is a belief in reincarnation so dangerous? To believe in reincarnation is to take away the focus and incentive we should have to make every moment of this life count in preparation for our continued schooling in the life to come. If one believes they will be given another chance then there is no real desire to do one's best. Why knock yourself out if you can do it over again?
"We are born once, we die once (Heb 9:27) and we are resurrected once to die no more (Alma 11:45 & 12:18). That's the doctrine of the church as taught by the Lord through the prophet Joseph Smith in scripture that we as a church have accepted as binding. Anything other than that is dangerous and damning because it prevents us from progressing in this life as we should.
"In the words of Bruce R McConkie, reincarnation "is a false doctrine originating with the devil. It runs counter to the whole system and plan of salvation whereunder spirits are born in pre-existence, are permitted to pass through a mortal probation, and then in due course become immortal, incorruptible, and eternal in nature." As a church, we do not believe in reincarnation."
Ryan
Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!
[Updated on: Wed, 16 January 2013 09:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #2242 is a reply to message #2240] |
Tue, 26 February 2013 07:35 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Very bold statements, but they offer nothing new to the conversation. I was aware before posting this many people reject the concept of reincarnation. You also assume this is only the second life or second estate. A better interpretation would be to call them the Previous Estate, The Current Estate, and the Next Estate.
I believe reincarnation is the exception, not the rule. To think I am proposing a person can return an infinite number of times, or that it is an easy decision to return to this estate is to deny the profound effect mortal life has on beings of spirit. Why is it so impossible to think a person may improve their nature without completing the goal of exaltation, and then return to another mortal life to continue this improvement? Most who improve their nature in this life achieve exaltation without needing a second mortal experience. Others do not improve their nature in this life and receive their reward. Only a few improve themselves and still need another lifetime to complete the process. There are plenty of gospel questions for which reincarnation gives a logical answer. Furthermore, the Spirit has manifested the truthfulness of it to me through multiple matters, and at multiple levels.
KoZThose who have had it revealed unto them... it is for you to know and embrace. Everyone else... it is not for them!
This statement could be made about any matter in which you disagree with someone else. The implication is that anyone who disagrees with your argument, simply hasn't come to understand your point of view. I understand your point of view, and I disagree with it and refute it.
- Dragon
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #2243 is a reply to message #385] |
Tue, 26 February 2013 11:55 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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JulesGP wrote on Sat, 26 May 2012 01:20http://www.greaterthings.com/JJDewey/Eternal_Lives/
This man makes a good case for reincarnation/multiple mortal probations in this article - all backed by LDS scripture and quotes from church leaders. It's a long read, but VERY informative and although there's a lot of his own conjecture, it's sourced pretty well and his conclusions rang true to me.
I am also reading the Amalgamated King Follett Discourse given by Joseph Smith, and he discusses some pretty interesting related things there.
One thing I want to add that was not mentioned in the article above - the church teaches that those who have lost their children to death before the age of accountability will have the opportunity to raise them to adulthood during the millennium. Is this not essentially reincarnation?
I'd like to read the book "Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives" ( http://www.amazon.com/Teachings-Doctrine-Eternal-Lives-Anony mous/dp/1934537969). The entire book is simply quotes about the topic by LDS leaders, and scripture quotes.
I just want to add to my own comments here and say that although I have found truths in studying the doctrine of eternal lives, I have not developed a firm conclusion or complete understanding. I know there is much more to understand and I am still studying. Although I think that the complete truth may contain elements of everyone's posts here, I am not convinced that anyone in this thread has expressed the complete truth as it IS. That's just my humble opinion. 
SO, I'll keep learning as the spirit directs!
~Jules
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3365 is a reply to message #412] |
Tue, 02 September 2014 21:43 |
Gregory Quinton Young
Messages: 2
Registered: September 2014
Location: New Zealand
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Junior Member |
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Would a possibility of reincarnation not then remove the need for a Saviour? Do I need multiple life attempts to get it right or can the Saviour make up the difference of my short comings?
"When we have done all that we are able, we can rely on God's promised mercy. We have a Savior, who has taken upon him not just the sins, but also "the pains and the sicknesses of his people ... that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities" (Alma 7:1112). He is our Savior, and when we have done all that we can, he will make up the difference, in his own way and in his own time. Of that I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen." Dallin H Oaks
12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. Alma 7:12 Perhaps this succoring is making up our differences?
Also if reincarnation What body of the multiples I have had do I get to have resurrected? And how confusing will it be to all those who have known me and now I look so different?
Just my thoughts.
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3402 is a reply to message #3367] |
Tue, 09 December 2014 13:13 |
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brrgilbert
Messages: 282
Registered: December 2012
Location: Nampa, Idaho
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Senior Member |
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Dragon wrote on Mon, 06 October 2014 04:59Quote:Would a possibility of reincarnation not then remove the need for a Saviour?
The answer to this question is to say that without the atonement, progress of any kind becomes impossible.
Quote:Do I need multiple life attempts to get it right or can the Saviour make up the difference of my short comings?
This life is the time for you to prepare to meet God. Every soul born on this Earth has the potential, in a single human lifetime, to achieve exaltation. It can be accomplished in a single lifetime, that is clear to me. I believe reincarnation is the exception, and not the rule. I do not know that for certain. It may be that everyone on this earth today has been here several times. It may be that less than 2% of the Earth's current population lived previous lives. The atonement can cover most sins. The sins of King David were not forgiven in his lifetime. He lost his exaltation, and the kingdom was divided. Is it possible he will be reincarnated and regain his exaltation?
We live in the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. This dispensation precedes that of the End of Times. Our dispensation is that of the "Restoration" of all things as from the beginning. We have witnessed it with reference to polygamy, priesthood, temples . . . David's soul will not remain in hell. He will not remain a "ghost."
"I must endure the presence of a few caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."
The Little Prince by St. Exupery
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3436 is a reply to message #259] |
Wed, 22 April 2015 00:19 |
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Elejian
Messages: 39
Registered: June 2013
Location: United States
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I've been studying this topic for the past year. As a result, I just finished compiling a book about it. It's over 70,000 words, so there's no room to explain everything here. I especially learned a lot from (1) the Book of Mormon (for example, I believe that Alma 12:27 is an enhancement of Hebrews 9:27) and (2) the New Testament Greek.
For a quick answer, it is clear that multiple mortal probations are at least possible: Assuming Lazarus and other people who were raised from the dead in the scriptures were (1) truly dead, and (2) are not currently mortally alive, then those people have had at least 2 mortal probations.
Although some may argue that those are special cases, they do show the possibility, nonetheless.
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3601 is a reply to message #3599] |
Thu, 08 March 2018 21:11 |
The Airbender
Messages: 20
Registered: March 2018
Location: Blanding
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Junior Member |
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I had the idea of "multiple mortalities" first mentioned to me by a friend who told me he wondered whether or not we would become like Adam, and whether Adam would become like the Savior.
There are multiple references in the Journal of Discourses to the idea of being translated and then returning to mortality, the being translated or resurrected again. This was the idea that Brigham Young insisted on. He said that Adam had already lived on another Earth and then after creating his own posterity spiritually, he came down to an Earth to partake of mortal food in order to provide mortal bodies for his spirit children. Then, he partook of celestial food again and his body returned to a celestial state.
There is much to consider and I could look for the references if anyone else is interested. After hearing the vague idea from my friend, I could not get it out of the back of my mind and spent much time considering and pondering what might be the path for us after this life.
I don't remember exactly when or how, but I came to the conclusion that after this life we will have to do what our Savior did and then later we will have to do what Adam did, and then we can become as the Gods are.
I recently had my ideas corroborated by another person who laid out the idea of 8 probations that rang true to me.
There is no "reincarnation" in this idea. There are no "do-overs." Rather, if at any point we fail, we remain in the state we were in and no longer progress. I have come to see this as what is meant by "eternal progression."
The idea is that we work our way up to eventually become like God all the while proving ourselves and helping those below us.
1st Estate: We are taken as naked intelligences and organized into bodies of spirit. This idea is very clearly explained by Cleon Skousen in his essay My Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement. He says that he learned what he wrote in that article from John A. Widstoe.
2nd Estate: Mortality/Telestial state. We are sent to receive a physical body and be tested whether we will follow God or Satan, whether we care more about treasures on Earth or treasures in heaven. In other words, this life.
3rd Estate: The millenium or millenial/terrestrial state.
Now, this is where things get pretty crazy and disconnected from what we understand as Canonized LDS doctrine.
4th Estate: Those who have passed the first three estates are then sent back as messengers or servants of the Lord to help those passing through their second estate. I don't understand too much of what this means, you'd have to ask the person who shared it with me. However, it does explain how Peter James and John very obviously shake hands with Adam when according to our understanding the would not have had bodies yet, right? It also gives us a clue as to how someone can actually rise up and become perfect before coming to an Earth as a savior.
5th Estate: Messiah of a world. As I understand it, this person actually descends to the world three times and on the third time, he performs the atonement as the savior. I find it interesting that according to what I have been shown, Melchizedek was actually Jesus Christ, but on a previous mortal life. You can take it or leave it, but for me personally, it explains some important things. I have heard that Melchizedek was perfect, and that always confused me. Now it doesn't.
6th Estate: Ancient of Days, King of a world. This is the time when the person actually comes to a world to begin the process of creating bodies for the spirit children that he has created, as did Adam.
7th Estate: This would be where Adam goes after he has finished his work of creating bodies for his children. He would be a King of Kings, or God of gods. He would guide his children in creating worlds for children of their own.
8th Estate: This is the point at which we join the Elohim in the Celestial circuit of worlds and go in to no more go out. We would be Gods of Gods and among those who have achieved the highest level of exaltation (at least that we can fathom at this point)
So, take that for what it is worth. It is one of those topics that burns deep within me and has much to consider. I'm not claiming that this is THE truth or that I have been taught it completely. Mostly I have just had little impressions and persons wiser than me have taught me things that I found interesting.
God knows, though. We can ask Him if we want to know more about it.
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3622 is a reply to message #3595] |
Tue, 14 August 2018 01:49 |
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Elejian
Messages: 39
Registered: June 2013
Location: United States
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Dragon wrote on Wed, 07 March 2018 12:20I have since learned that Satan uses a corrupted doctrine of multiple lives as a means to avoid the need for a Savior. He teaches that we come here many times until we get it right, and therefore we don't need an Atonement to make everything right and justified in this life. As such, I'm no longer prepared to discuss the topic until I can find a way to distinguish between the truth and the corrupted doctrine.
Several scriptures note that there are 2 types of resurrections. For example: "And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation--that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; And they that believe not unto eternal damnation" (D&C 29:43-4).
"Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves . . . the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another . . . from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead" (TPJS 346-7).
Joseph must have got that last phrase from the Bible: "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead" (Philippians 3:11).
The "resurrection of the dead" that Joseph and Paul are referring to sounds more like the conditional resurrection unto eternal life, and less like the unconditional one that comes automatically to everyone.
"Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God" (2 Nephi 10:25).
The power of Christ and His atonement is absolutely necessary to attain the resurrection unto eternal life. It's the only thing that will ultimately get us off the "bhavacakra," the cycle of everlasting/eternal deaths.
Even little children need His power: "But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten" (D&C 29:46).
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| Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3878 is a reply to message #3622] |
Sun, 19 July 2020 11:34 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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The Airbender,
I appreciate you laying out the 8 estates as best you understand it. However, there does appear to be a doctrinal conflict. My understanding of the Atonement is that if we fully accept the Atonement, we will obtain the SAME reward and the SAME blessings as Jesus Christ in the next life. We will inherit ALL that the Father has. Perhaps this is achieved through the path you describe, and perhaps not. My understanding says that the power of the Infinite Atonement means we do not have to serve as the Savior of another world in another lifetime to achieve the same level of growth as Jesus Christ.
I look forward to the day when such things can be openly discussed and clarified by Church Leaders without fear of a mass apostasy resulting from new doctrine being preached.
- Dragon
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