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Re: Identity of the Holy Ghost [message #2680 is a reply to message #2670] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 23:58 |
kenh
Messages: 62 Registered: June 2012
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This has been a very interesting topic indeed. My thoughts are these: We did not pass through each other in the pre-mortal existence. Spirits do not pass through other spirits. So the Holy Ghost cannot dwell inside our spirits either. He does communicate with our spirits. This is done by an angel of the Lord who stands beside each of us. The Holy Ghost holds the keys of revelation, testimony, knowledge and comfort. He can only be at one place at one time. An angel of the Lord also acts as our conscience. Just as if Christ Himself were right beside each of us personally guiding and directing each of us every waking moment of our lives, that personal angel stands beside us and seeks to helps us choose the right each and every moment of our lives. By choosing the right, we then are blessed with the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Ghost, which is administered by another angel by our side speaking the words of Christ as well. For angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost the words of Christ. We are never alone. Angels are on our left and on our right, round about us to bear us up. This is what is known as faith. Faith is an assurance of things unseen, which are true. These angels of God are unseen by us a mortals, yet are true messengers of truth to each of us. Faith is following the promptings of the Light of Christ (again administered by an angel of the Lord) and following the promptings of the Holy Ghost (also administered by another angel of the Lord). Whether by Christ's own voice or His servants, it is the same. The mind and will of the Father made manifest to each and everyone of us. The Holy Ghost ill not be born in the Millennium. He will, I believe will be the Savior and Redeemer of another eternal round. Christ's atonement is eternal because it ramifications are eternal for everyone that is effected by it. Heavenly Father did not look to Jesus Christ as His Savior and Redeemer but was the Savior and Redeemer of His spirit brothers and sisters eons of eons ago. Christ did that which he saw His Father do. Thank you Jules for your thread as always.
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Re: Identity of the Holy Ghost [message #2681 is a reply to message #895] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 17:37 |
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Elejian
Messages: 39 Registered: June 2013 Location: United States
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Quote:So the Holy Ghost cannot dwell inside our spirits either.
There may be a semantics issue here, with the definition of the word "dwell."
Because "the Holy Ghost . . . is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us" (D&C 130:22).
Also, one or more unclean spirits seem to be able to "dwell" in a person (e.g. Mosiah 3:6, Luke 11:24-26, Mark 5:8-13).
Also, "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13).
Quote:Spirits do not pass through other spirits. . . . The Holy Ghost . . . does communicate with our spirits. This is done by an angel of the Lord who stands beside each of us.
To "stand beside" must be figurative.
Because if every righteous member has 1 or 2 angels beside them, and if spirits can't occupy the same space, this creates a challenge when a large number of righteous members are physically packed very close to each other. For example: a large earthquake at the Conference Center causing tens of thousands of people to become lumped together in a huge mass. A righteous member at the center of the mass of people would still need access to his or her angel(s) for guidance(?).
(I suppose that another way one can get around this is if one believes that angelic bodies are significantly smaller than physical mortal bodies, but I don't know of any scriptures that support this.)
Also, when we pray to "Heavenly Father" and get an answer, it's not really "Heavenly Father," but an angel next to us who heard and answered our prayer? Why are we taught to pray, "Our Father in Heaven?" Why not "My Personal Angel?"
My own belief is that Heavenly Father hears and answers our prayers without the need for a middleman angel.
The medium by which Heavenly Father does so is mentioned in the following 2 quotes.
"To prepare men to receive revelation from the Holy Ghost, the Lord sends forth his Spirit--meaning the Light of Christ, the omnipresent Spirit" (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, 75).
"We also believe that God the Eternal Father is omnipresent. Now by that I might point out that since he is a personal being, he can be in only one place at one time; and yet from him emanates a divine substance or spirit which we term the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Holy Spirit. That divine substance emanates from God to fill the immensity of space. It is through that divine spirit that he performs his great work. Also, it is through that divine Spirit that he is omnipresent" (Milton R. Hunter, Conference Report, October 1948, 17).
[Updated on: Sat, 17 August 2013 17:49] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Identity of the Holy Ghost [message #2688 is a reply to message #2681] |
Mon, 19 August 2013 12:01 |
kenh
Messages: 62 Registered: June 2012
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Elejian wrote on Sat, 17 August 2013 17:37Quote:So the Holy Ghost cannot dwell inside our spirits either.
There may be a semantics issue here, with the definition of the word "dwell."
Because "the Holy Ghost . . . is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us" (D&C 130:22).
Also, one or more unclean spirits seem to be able to "dwell" in a person (e.g. Mosiah 3:6, Luke 11:24-26, Mark 5:8-13).
Also, "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13).
Quote:Spirits do not pass through other spirits. . . . The Holy Ghost . . . does communicate with our spirits. This is done by an angel of the Lord who stands beside each of us.
To "stand beside" must be figurative.
Because if every righteous member has 1 or 2 angels beside them, and if spirits can't occupy the same space, this creates a challenge when a large number of righteous members are physically packed very close to each other. For example: a large earthquake at the Conference Center causing tens of thousands of people to become lumped together in a huge mass. A righteous member at the center of the mass of people would still need access to his or her angel(s) for guidance(?).
(I suppose that another way one can get around this is if one believes that angelic bodies are significantly smaller than physical mortal bodies, but I don't know of any scriptures that support this.)
Also, when we pray to "Heavenly Father" and get an answer, it's not really "Heavenly Father," but an angel next to us who heard and answered our prayer? Why are we taught to pray, "Our Father in Heaven?" Why not "My Personal Angel?"
My own belief is that Heavenly Father hears and answers our prayers without the need for a middleman angel.
The medium by which Heavenly Father does so is mentioned in the following 2 quotes.
"To prepare men to receive revelation from the Holy Ghost, the Lord sends forth his Spirit--meaning the Light of Christ, the omnipresent Spirit" (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, 75).
"We also believe that God the Eternal Father is omnipresent. Now by that I might point out that since he is a personal being, he can be in only one place at one time; and yet from him emanates a divine substance or spirit which we term the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Holy Spirit. That divine substance emanates from God to fill the immensity of space. It is through that divine spirit that he performs his great work. Also, it is through that divine Spirit that he is omnipresent" (Milton R. Hunter, Conference Report, October 1948, 17).
I want to make clear a few things. We pray only to our Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ as directed by the power of the Holy Ghost. Divine help from God comes to each of us in various ways. Angels of the Lord play a significant role in Heavenly Father's divine help in each of our lives. There are angles are our left and on our right. They speak to us the mind and will and words of Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost. Yes, the Light of Christ fills the immensity of space. How does each and every message for each of us personally get to us to guide and direct us every moment of the day? Through the Light of Christ, through the Holy Ghost and to each and every angel of the Lord to each and everyone of us personally here on earth. We are never alone. President David O. McKay stated that when we pray angels of the Lord take our prayers and by the speed of thought carry them to the halls of remembrance in heaven. The Prophet Joseph Smith stated that these angels of the Lord around us know our thoughts, words, action and desires of our hearts and are often grieved thereby. The Holy Ghost can only be at one place at one time, but with a massive army of celestial, heavenly messengers everyone can know to choose the right, receive witnesses of divine truths and feel the peaceful heavenly comfort that God intends for each of us. When the Lord stated that we have angels on our left and on our right, round about us to bear us up, that I testify is absolutely true! Angels do speak by the power of the Holy Ghost the words of Christ. This is because Christ cannot be everywhere at the same time. If what you stated, that the Light of Christ is capable of conveying all the help we need, then why would The Lord make clear His constant use angels to give us divine spiritual help , guidance, comfort and revelation? God chooses to always send a messenger, be it an angel, prophet, missionary, or us or Christ Himself.
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Re: Identity of the Holy Ghost [message #2693 is a reply to message #2688] |
Tue, 20 August 2013 23:08 |
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Elejian
Messages: 39 Registered: June 2013 Location: United States
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Thanks for your response.
I agree that the personage of the Holy Ghost can only be in 1 place at a time. But D&C 130 indicates that it could dwell in a person if it chose to. Evil spirits can apparently dwell in us as well. Therefore, I don't understand the statement that spirits can't pass through other spirits.
I agree that angels are round about us. But if spirits can't pass through other spirits, they cannot be immediately next to us all of the time. For example, if 100 righteous members were crammed into a subway car with maximum capacity of 100, if every one of them had 2 angels supporting them, then there would be 200 angels around. If spirits can't pass through other spirits, then the 200 angels cannot all fit in the subway car, but instead would be outside the subway car assisting us.
I agree that angels can and do give us comfort, etc. I meant that God, acting through the Light of Christ (or Spirit of the Gods), does not need angels to interact with anyone directly. He may choose to use angels, yes. The angels most likely benefit from these spiritual experiences.
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Re: Identity of the Holy Ghost [message #2696 is a reply to message #895] |
Thu, 22 August 2013 11:00 |
zone
Messages: 17 Registered: March 2013 Location: Middle Earth
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This brings up the question.
If there are more than one Hg, Holy Ghosts. Than how do we become this Ghost? Think of it is it just a title of an exaltation? Is it the place where one become Just men made perfect? Quote:"Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world" (Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348). . Men who have exalted them-self? So its really our own spirit that becomes one ONLY after we have passed the test of a 2nd estate and raise our spirits to the level of progress to be termed "An Holy Ghost".
Were we angels in an 1st estate
2nd estate/3rd estate (Millennium) we exalat ourselves to being an HG
4th Estate we serve as a HG AND progress to being as the Son of God
....
This would fit with this statement already quoted.
Quote:" ... There is one revelation that this people are not generally acquainted with. I think it has never been published, but probably it will be in the Church History. It is given in questions and answers. The first question is, "WHAT IS THE NAME OF GOD IN THE PURE LANGUAGE?" THE ANSWER SAYS "AHMAN." "WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD?" ANSWER, "SON AHMAN-THE GREATEST OF ALL THE PARTS OF GOD EXCEPTING AHMAN." "WHAT IS THE NAME OF MEN?" "SONS AHMAN," IS THE ANSWER. "What is the name of angels in the pure language?" "Anglo-man." THIS REVELATION GOES ON TO SAY THAT SONS AHMAN ARE THE GREATEST OF ALL THE PARTS OF GOD EXCEPTING SON AHMAN AND AHMAN, and that Anglo-man are the greatest of all the parts of God excepting Sons Ahman, Son Ahman, and Ahman, showing that the angels are a little lower than man. What is the conclusion to be drawn from this? It is, that THESE INTELLIGENT BEINGS ARE ALL PARTS OF GOD, AND THAT THOSE WHO HAVE THE MOST OF THE PARTS OF GOD ARE THE GREATEST, OR NEXT TO GOD, AND THOSE WHO HAVE THE NEXT GREATEST PORTIONS OF THE PARTS OF GOD, ARE THE NEXT GREATEST, OR NEAREST TO THE FULNESS OF GOD; AND SO WE MIGHT GO ON TO TRACE THE SCALE OF INTELLIGENCES FROM THE HIGHEST TO THE LOWEST, tracing the parts and portions of God so far as we are made acquainted with them. HENCE WE SEE THAT WHEREVER A GREAT AMOUNT OF THIS INTELLIGENT SPIRIT EXISTS, THERE IS A GREAT AMOUNT OR PROPORTION OF GOD, WHICH MAY GROW AND INCREASE UNTIL THERE IS A FULNESS OF THIS SPIRIT, AND THEN THERE IS A FULNESS OF GOD." (Orson Pratt, 1855, Journal of Discourses Vol 2, page 340)
[Updated on: Thu, 22 August 2013 11:02] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Identity of the Holy Ghost [message #2703 is a reply to message #895] |
Sat, 24 August 2013 23:05 |
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Elejian
Messages: 39 Registered: June 2013 Location: United States
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zone wrote on Thu, 22 August 2013 10:00Were we angels in an 1st estate
"There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones . . . Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory" (D&C 129:1, 3).
So the spirits of just men made perfect/complete/whole could be ministering to people on the earth, yes.
Quote:"Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world" (Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).
This has been discussed in another thread, but Abraham 4:1 states that the Gods organized and formed the heavens and the earth. If we believe Michael was one of those who organized and formed the heavens and the earth, then his spirit was sufficiently Holy (whether 98%, 99%, or even 100%???) to be considered a God with a capital "G".
"It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:51). I don't think he meant that Michael is the one and only Holy Ghost, but that premortally Adam "received" Michael, Jesus "received" Jehovah, and we are told to "receive" our full divine potential.
zone wrote on Thu, 22 August 2013 10:00If there are more than one Hg, Holy Ghosts. Than how do we become this Ghost? Think of it is it just a title of an exaltation? . . . So its really our own spirit that becomes one ONLY after we have passed the test of a 2nd estate and raise our spirits to the level of progress to be termed "An Holy Ghost".
(I previously posted Brigham Young's statement from Journal of Discourses 1:93, followed by Colossians 2:9.) The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are within us, but certainly not at the level of "fulness" that Christ has.
- The Holy Ghost in us represents the omnipresent Light of Christ (Spirit of the Gods), ranging in intensity from (to pick arbitrary numbers) close to 0% (son of perdition) to 100% or higher (God). Lectures on Faith 5:2 states that those who are exalted would "possess the same mind," which is the Holy Ghost (in its fullness of 100% or higher). But I think we still retain our individual personalities (see below).
- The Son in us represents our physical body. In my opinion, then, there will still be variability in the way our physical bodies appear to others.
- The Father in us represents our spirit body. In my opinion, then, there will still be variability in our personalities (favorite ice cream flavor, etc.).
"No member of the Godhead dwells in us in the literal sense of the word, but all of them dwell in us figuratively to the extent that we are like them. If we have 'the mind of Christ' (1 Corinthians 2:16), which we receive by the power of the Holy Ghost, then Christ dwells in us. If the love of God abides in our souls, which love is a gift of God that comes by the power of the Holy Ghost, then God dwells in us. In some way beyond our comprehension, all of this is possible by the power of the Holy Ghost" (Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 271-2).
The First Presidency of George Albert Smith, J. Reuben Clark, and David O. McKay wrote that God "has taught us the immortality of the human soul, itself a trinity of intelligence, of spiritual body, and of mortal body, and that after the resurrection, our trinity reunited, we become perfected beings" (James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency 6:236).
"I have heard it said, often, that man is a dual being--I say, he is a trinity. Man is a representative of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. When a human body comes into the world, there is a light from another sphere placed within it. The spirit that God places within this tabernacle was not created in this sphere, it was created yonder, in the presence of our Father and our Mother in heaven. When that spirit tabernacle was born unto them, there was a light, there was an intelligence placed within it that existed from everlasting. So that man was created in the image of God, and, like unto God, he is from everlasting to everlasting, and is thus a representative of the Trinity in heaven" (Ben E. Rich, October 1908 General Conference).
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Re: Identity of the Holy Ghost [message #3861 is a reply to message #2703] |
Wed, 17 June 2020 11:19 |
CoEternal
Messages: 3 Registered: June 2020
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Junior Member |
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The true identity is Joseph Smith.
There are a number of his statements that elude to that.
And that is the essence of D&C 136.
Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord's anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated![D&C 135:3]
"Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men on this stand who would want to take my life"[Joseph Smith; Life of Heber C. Kimball, p.33]
"The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has."[Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards]
Some may think what I have said concerning Adam strange, but the period will come when the people will be willing to adopt Joseph Smith as their Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and God! but not the Father of their spirits, for that was our Father Adam."[Prophet Brigham Young, Journal History, p. 131, December 11, 1869]
"Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost, but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world, which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would do the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory, so there would be Gods many & Lords many there were many mansions, even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory."[Wilford Woodruff Diary Joseph Smith Papers]
"On May 23, 1843, I listened to a discourse preached in the Nauvoo temple, which was then only partially finished. Brother Joseph was talking on the pre-existence of our spirits, and our relations to God in the spirit world, and our standing in the family circle of our Father. Now I am telling the truth, and I remember that while thus talking he suddenly turned around to the Apostles sitting on the stand and said in effect: 'Brethren, if I were to rell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.' Brother Brigham arose and said, 'Don't tell me anything that I can't bear, for I don't want to apostatize.' Brother Joseph, addressing the Apostles, then said: 'The weight of this kingdom has been as a millstone around my neck, but I am going to roll it off on your shoulders, and then the kingdom of God will go on.' There were eleven of the Apostles present at this time. Among them I saw Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt, Willard Richards, Geo. A. Smith, Brigham Young and John Taylor. I don't remember the others." [Robert Horne, "Reminiscences of the Church in Nauvoo," Latter-Day Saints' Millennial Star, Vol. 55, No. 36, Sept. 4, 1893, p. 585]
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Re: Identity of the Holy Ghost [message #3869 is a reply to message #3861] |
Fri, 26 June 2020 19:51 |
john144
Messages: 10 Registered: April 2020 Location: Austin, TX
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Junior Member |
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I see you are new here. I'm pretty new myself. If you want to read some fascinating posts, check out the posts made by KingdomOfZion. He posted on various subjects, including the office of the Holy Ghost, and Adam-God. He posted a downloadable copy of a book about Adam-God by a guy named Craig Tholson. I'm not sure I agree with everything Tholson says, but he does make some good points about Adam-God (notice I'm not saying "theory"). Tholson covers about every statement on this subject ever made by church authorities.
But, back to the topic at hand. KingdomOfZion makes the case that the Holy Ghost is an office and that any member of the church of the firstborn can act in this office. Other people have stated this as well. This is the best and most succinct explanation I have heard.
"The Holy Spirit is the mind of God, as it is described in the Lectures on Faith. The Holy Ghost term can be used in the same way. This power is the glory of God shared amongst His servants. The Holy Ghost gift is a change of one’s spirit to a higher level of glory. The personage is either the soul after it has received the glory, or the Spirit being exercised by someone." This was written by an anonymous person who has received his Second Comforter and written several books on the subject. Here is a link to this statement on his blog. https://purerevelations.wordpress.com/our-temporal-progression/
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