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Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » Be ye therefore perfect (Concerning Perfection in Mortality)
Be ye therefore perfect [message #256] Tue, 15 March 2011 16:45 Go to next message
Amonhi is currently offline  Amonhi
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The Commandment:
Christ said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." - Matt. 5:48

The Promise:
"The Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." - 1 Ne. 3:7

Success Stories:

  1. "And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and scheweth evil?" - Job 1:8
  2. "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." - Gen. 6:9
  3. "Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.". - D&C 107:43


Perfection Before Resurrection:
Quote:
They Are Just Men Made Perfect D&C 76:69,
They Will be Resurrected in the First Resurrection, D&C 76:64
They will come forth in the Resurrection of the Just. D&C 76:65 & 50


Re: Be ye therefore perfect [message #257 is a reply to message #256] Tue, 15 March 2011 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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These quotes are great. Really flies in the face of the idea we cannot be perfect until we are resurrected. I can't say how many times people have used the two statements by Jesus to say He didn't declare Himself perfect until after his resurrection.

- Dragon
Re: Be ye therefore perfect [message #279 is a reply to message #257] Tue, 05 April 2011 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amonhi is currently offline  Amonhi
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I have heard those statements too.

But they contradict the scriptures... For example, D&C 76 refers to "those who will come forth in the morning of the resurrection"
Quote:
These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. - D&C 76:64-69


They are just men made perfect and yet haven't been resurrected but are promised that they will come forth in the resurrection. They made or may not have died yet. Those who will be "Twinkled" are those who are perfect and have not yet died and will die and be resurrected in the same moment. They are the just men made perfect while in mortal life.

Also, can you be a God without being perfect? What is then the criteria for being a Perfect God? Christ and the Holy Ghost were Gods before even being born. They were perfected as spirits. Christ retained his perfection while living a mortal life. He did not "FALL" from his perfection or Godly state.

The Holy Ghost remains Perfect as a spirit and a God. Perfection does not mean finished as in no longer progressing.

What then is required to be perfect?
Re: Be ye therefore perfect [message #281 is a reply to message #279] Wed, 06 April 2011 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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Quote:
per·fec·tion   
[per-fek-shuhn] noun
1. the state or quality of being or becoming perfect.
2. the highest degree of proficiency, skill, or excellence, as in some art.
3. a perfect embodiment or example of something.
4. a quality, trait, or feature of the highest degree of excellence.
5. the highest or most nearly perfect degree of a quality or trait.
6. the act or fact of perfecting.
- Dictionary.com


Quote:
per·fect   
[adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] Show IPA
adjective
1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.
2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.
3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.
4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.
5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.
6. thorough; complete; utter: perfect strangers.
7. pure or unmixed: perfect yellow.
8. unqualified; absolute: He has perfect control over his followers.
9. expert; accomplished; proficient.
10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree: He made a perfect fool of himself.
11. Botany .
a. having all parts or members present.
b. monoclinous.
12. Grammar .
a. noting an action or state brought to a close prior to some temporal point of reference, in contrast to imperfect or incomplete action.
b. designating a tense or other verb formation or construction with such meaning.
13. Music .
a. applied to the consonances of unison, octave, and fifth, as distinguished from those of the third and sixth, which are called imperfect.
b. applied to the intervals, harmonic or melodic, of an octave, fifth, and fourth in their normal form, as opposed to augmented and diminished.
14. Mathematics . (of a set) equal to its set of accumulation points.
15. Obsolete . assured or certain.
noun Grammar .
16. the perfect tense.
17. a verb form or construction in the perfect tense. Compare future perfect, pluperfect, present perfect.
verb (used with object)
18. to bring to completion; finish.
19. to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless.
20. to bring nearer to perfection; improve.
21. to make fully skilled.
22. Printing . to print the reverse of (a printed sheet).
- Dictionary.com


I particularly like the second definition of perfection, indicating a proficiency of some skill, or achieving a mastery over some ability. Many believe perfection is merely to be without flaws, or without fault. For those, one must consider how the atonement removes these imperfections. Also, we would need to see through the Savior's eyes when determining if a flaw destroys perfection.

What is required to attain this proficiency? And what skills are we to be proficient in? Love. When we become an expert at love, in all its forms, we become more like God. To expound further, Faith, Hope, Charity and Love. These are the skills which matter to God. If we become experts in these things, can anyone claim there is something we lack to become more like God?

- Dragon


- Dragon
Re: Be ye therefore perfect [message #283 is a reply to message #281] Wed, 06 April 2011 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amonhi is currently offline  Amonhi
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You make good points Dragon,

Being perfect as commanded does not mean perfect in all things for example, a perfect basketball player, painter, musician, height, appearance, knowledge and various other things.

It doesn't even mean we have finished our progression. You would think that a requirement of being a God is perfection. (Who could imagine a God that was not perfect?) But Christ and the Holy Ghost are clear examples of perfection being accomplished without a body. Having a body is a MAJOR step in our progression and is part of the path to death and resurrection. So here we see ample room for growth, learning and discovery.

Part of the definition of perfection you provided says, "excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement:" Many people apply this to God and say that God is so perfect he can't improve because to change would make him imperfect. This essentially means that God has become "Damned" or stopped in his progression.

Another way of looking at this is as you said, perfect is certain attributes upon which all progression and interpersonal relationships rely for a society of constantly improving Gods to live, work, play and be together without interfering with each others progression, agency being and becoming.

We sinned in the premortal world and were able to remain in Gods presence. It was not until agency and propagation was threatened that our brothers and sisters were cast out. Gods must be Gods and allow others to be Gods over themselves as well. Perfection means to have acquired the attributes, knowledge and philosophies that are required to live in such an environment as the Celestial Kingdom.
Re: Be ye therefore perfect [message #295 is a reply to message #283] Wed, 20 April 2011 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Seeker is currently offline  Seeker
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It seems that "perfect" is also mis-used/understood. If I did a perfect painting, then it couldn't be improved upon. But if someone else was looking at my perfect painting, they might not like it and suggest changes to the color or shapes or just think it was ugly.

What makes the picture perfect? It is perfect because it is exactly what I wanted it to be. If it wasn't then I could change it until it was perfect to me. Meaning that it had become exactly what I wanted it to be. Even though someone else didn't like it doesn't make it imperfect. As long as it is what I want it to be it is perfect.

Someone else might say, this is perfect for our dinning room. And it is because it adds exactly what they want to the dinning room.

I think God is perfect because he is exactly what he wants to be when he wants to be whatever it is that he wants to be. Every situation is different and God changes according to the situation. Sometimes harsh and angry and sometimes soft and pleasant. Perfect to his own standards and according to his own knowledge and understanding, but not so much according to everyone else's. That is why they could kill Christ who was perfect by his own standard, but not by the standards of others.


~ Seeker
Re: Be ye therefore perfect [message #2677 is a reply to message #256] Thu, 15 August 2013 18:58 Go to previous message
Elejian is currently offline  Elejian
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"Perfect" in the Job & Genesis scriptures quoted previously is from the Hebrew tam & tamiym, which I think means "whole, complete"

"Perfect" in the Matthew scripture quoted previously is from the Greek teleios, which I think means "complete"

We are not sinless like Christ is, but we can become whole, or complete.
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