Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » Current Church Doctrine » How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing?
| How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2140] |
Thu, 31 January 2013 09:46  |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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When discussing Home Teaching on this forum, it was suggested assignments should not be necessary if we were all righteous enough to live every moment by the direction of the Holy Ghost. My response was to say this would lead a person to become a 'slave to the Holy Ghost'. So what does this mean?
I mean when you stop making your own decisions and turn at every moment to the Holy Ghost, then you have become a being who is acted upon rather than one who is acting. Agency means making a choice and seeing it through, then accepting the consequences. If every moment of our lives can be dictated by another entity, be it another man, a prophet, a spouse, a demon, an angel, or even the Holy Ghost, then we would take no responsibility for our actions because we would only be doing what we are told.
Is this a bad thing?
Some have indicated becoming a slave to the Holy Ghost is the Plan of God and the goal of individuals. I declare boldly this is not true. I have heard of people who pray before deciding on a brand of toothpaste. To me this shows the silliness of the extreme. To turn to the word of God on this subject,
D&C 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
We are not here to learn to sacrifice our individuality. Rather we are here to learn and to grow. The Holy Ghost will guide us in things where we have no experience. However, once we have knowledge of a thing, we are expected to act upon that knowledge. We do not need to confirm with the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true before declaring it to be so to others. Yes, we need a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but we do not reconfirm that testimony at every door a missionary knocks on. We don't turn to God to remind us of things He has guided us in before. It's true every situation is different, but we are given knowledge to make our own decisions. We cannot live every second of our lives through the direction of the Holy Ghost without sacrificing the goal we came to Earth to achieve.
- Dragon
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2167 is a reply to message #2148] |
Sun, 03 February 2013 01:32  |
Ashleyd
Messages: 100
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I disagree. Slave implies FORCE. There is no force in God's plan. And there is no FORCE involved in following the spirit. That is the adversaries way. However, home teaching through being "assigned" friends, could probably be construed more as force since each person didn't have a say in who they are to visit teach. Further, if we are only visiting people who we were assigned to visit isn't that the very definition of being a slothful servant and having had to be commanded in something? We are to do good according to our own free will. I believe this kind of doctrine you are teaching would lead a person further away from God. Obedience to God and His voice is a requirement. Obedience and Sacrifice bring us closer to Him and sacrificing and being obedient is entirely dependent upon our free will.When we are following the spirit and following any promptings of the spirit it always requires Faith. However, the same will not always be true when speaking of church callings/assignments, and doing, or accepting them. Nowhere in the scriptures are we told about how to be careful of being a slave to the spirit. However, we are told many times about the dangers of relying on the arm of flesh and not enough on God. That would be Idolatry and whether it is relying too much on your own flesh or someone elses it is the same.
I think the scripture that you presented to illustrate your point actually illustrates the opposite as Jules shows below.
[Updated on: Sun, 03 February 2013 03:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2169 is a reply to message #2140] |
Sun, 03 February 2013 02:38 |
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JulesGP
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Location: Davis County, UT
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D&C 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
I cannot see how this applies to following the Spirit. My understanding is that this applies to commandments, not following the Spirit.
Quote: 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.
30 Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments?
31 Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled?
32 I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing.
33 Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their breward lurketh cbeneath, and not from above.
I agree with Ashley, we CHOOSE to follow the Spirit, then that brings to pass righteousness. If we have to be commanded or compelled by quotas and numbers to do our home teaching, that is being a slothful servant.
It's funny that you mentioned toothpaste..... After a lot of praying, I was led by the Spirit to a HUGE awakening about the chemicals and such in products we use every day that were making me sick and deteriorate to nothing. I was taught how to make my own products from scratch. One of those that I make from herbs and healthy, edible, organic, chemical free ingredients, is toothpaste. I also discovered (after a trip to the ER), that my son is highly allergic to one of the primary ingredients in toothpaste. So he too now uses my homemade toothpaste. I have the Spirit of the Lord to thank for the kind of toothpaste I use. 
If we learn to follow the spirit regularly, we will be guided in ALL things.
Quote:7 But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.
Quote: 30 He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh.
31 And again, I say unto you, all things must be done in the name of Christ, whatsoever you do in the Spirit;
32 And ye must give thanks unto God in the Spirit for whatsoever blessing ye are blessed with.
Quote:2 And I, Nephi, said unto them: Behold they were manifest unto the prophet by the voice of the Spirit; for by the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, which shall come upon the children of men according to the flesh.
Quote:13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.
Quote:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Quote:61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
Quote:12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good--yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.
13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I will impart unto you of my Spirit, which shall enlighten your mind, which shall fill your soul with joy;
14 And then shall ye know, or by this shall you know, all things whatsoever you desire of me, which are pertaining unto things of righteousness, in faith believing in me that you shall receive.
I cannot see how any of these - or anywhere for that matter, says that following the Spirit can turn into "too much of a good thing". In fact, my understanding is that we MUST follow the Spirit in order to actually RECEIVE the First Comforter and receive our C&E. We cannot receive it any other way, except by learning to rely upon the Spirit of the Lord in all things. Then when we receive the Second Comforter, and receive the Savior, even His words must be ratified by the Spirit:
http://www.elliaison.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=10&start=0&rid=35&S=7af868fc153875137051706c8870ef22
When God speaks to us, HIS words must be ratified by the Spirit (we must be persuaded):
http://www.elliaison.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=115&start=0&rid=35&S=7af868fc153875137051706c8870ef22
The Spirit teaches us truth in ALL things, and it cannot lie. So am having a difficult time seeing how you could become a "slave to the Spirit".
~Jules
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2189 is a reply to message #2182] |
Wed, 06 February 2013 07:51 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Yes, I see all those quotes. None of them say you should check every second with the Holy Ghost about what to have for breakfast or what brand of toothpaste you should buy. We SHOULD be in tune with the Holy Ghost so when we are warned toothpaste or Trix is harming us, we will listen and change. That is NOT the same as saying a quick prayer every time you pick up a product at the grocery store or approach a stop sign.
Furthermore, our goal is to become like God. Does the Holy Ghost tell God what to do, or does God instruct the Holy Ghost? Which God do you worship? The arguments about why we should subject our individuality to the Holy Ghost are hollow. We are supposed to grow and learn. If someone is a Telestial Being, or Natural Man, they see their goal as to obtain as much of the Holy Ghost as possible. It will help them change and grow. They then reach a point where they are always in tune with the Holy Ghost. That does not mean they don't make decisions without the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
Perhaps I simply need to state it this way. We should pray about large decisions, even when it appears obvious.
We should pray when we encounter a difficult decision where we cannot see what is right.
When we encounter a decision where we already know what is right, we should not hesitate, but move forward, trusting that we will be warned if we are proceeding down the wrong path.
When we encounter a decision where there is no apparent difference between the choices (Crest or Colgate) why pause at all? If we are in tune enough to hear warnings, we would receive the 'spiritual text' telling us there is something wrong with the toothpaste.
- Dragon
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2190 is a reply to message #2189] |
Wed, 06 February 2013 14:05 |
Ashleyd
Messages: 100
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I'm not sure where anyone advocated saying a prayer every time you pick up an item at the grocery store or where anyone was suggesting doing things like that to begin with so I feel like your whole argument is kind of moot. Also, you don't have to pray about everything to get direction or answers for everything. Sometimes we are given direction without inquiring at all. That's why it's such a gift. If you have the Holy Ghost it will tell you all things which ye should do. The more in tune with it you become the more aligned with God's will you become. I also think it's why Jules and I wondered why you even brought up the whole "slave to the holy ghost" thing and why we could not understand where you were even coming from there.
[Updated on: Wed, 06 February 2013 14:09] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2198 is a reply to message #2189] |
Sat, 09 February 2013 16:10 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Dragon wrote on Wed, 06 February 2013 07:51When we encounter a decision where there is no apparent difference between the choices (Crest or Colgate) why pause at all?
It's funny that you use this toothpaste example again. Crest - although it contains a cocktail of poisonous ingredients, it will not cause any IMMEDIATE harm to my son. Colgate however, contains the ingredient that he is allergic to, and was treated in the emergency room for merely having it come in contact with his skin. I guess there IS a difference - even if it is not apparent TO YOU. Maybe things like which toothpaste or cereal to buy are important to others, and they desire for the Spirit to guide them. I don't share your condemnation of others who try to gain truth and knowledge in all things by the Spirit, even if I may not share the same concern for those particular things.
Quote:If we are in tune enough to hear warnings, we would receive the 'spiritual text' telling us there is something wrong with the toothpaste.
I'm confused about the position you are taking. First, you said we should not rely upon the spirit for seemingly simple and small choices like the example you used regarding toothpaste. But here, you are suggesting a level of communication with the Spirit that is developed after a lot of prayer asking specific questions, recognizing answers, faith in those answers, trust in those answers, and practice. Once we are able to recognize the Spirit speaking to us as we ask in prayer, we learn to communicate with God via the Spirit more efficiently by our "desire to know", and we learn to receive those "spiritual texts" and gain revelation, truth, knowledge, understanding, and direction in ALL (including the "little") things. But that is STILL communication with the Spirit, and it is STILL relying upon the Spirit for direction.
We can still choose to ignore those "spiritual texts" or promptings. But heeding them - in my eyes, does not constitute being a "Slave to the Spirit". As Jeremy and Ashley pointed out above, slavery denotes force and control. We choose to follow the Spirit, or we choose not to.
Also, I disagree with your statement here:
Quote:Yes, I see all those quotes. None of them say you should check every second with the Holy Ghost about what to have for breakfast or what brand of toothpaste you should buy.
Quote:7 But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.
That sounds like a command to me. And even as some of us are living within a different sphere - having received our C&E, we still rely upon God to TEACH us to become gods, and for that we need the constant companionship of the Spirit.
Also, what about when we are baptized and commanded to "receive the Holy Ghost"? The very basis of receiving the Fullness of the Gospel IS to learn to have the Spirit as a CONSTANT companion, and to rely upon it to give us revelation concerning ALL THINGS. Is that being a "slave to the Spirit", or feasting upon the words of Christ?
2 Nephi 32 has some pretty poignant things to say about this:
Quote: 1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
You and I have both read the book Elliaison put out titled "The Unspeakable Gift of the Holy Ghost". The points illustrated in those scriptures are expressed in that book too. One of those being that the things the Spirit teaches us ARE the words of Christ.
In your comments on this book, your wife wrote this on behalf of both of you:
fairy wrote on Tue, 29 June 2010 19:56We must be willing to hear WHATEVER the Spirit says...
- Fairy and Dragon
Am I misunderstanding what she/you meant by that?
~Jules
[Updated on: Sun, 10 February 2013 21:08] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2205 is a reply to message #2140] |
Mon, 11 February 2013 22:53 |
Called to Serve
Messages: 39
Registered: December 2012
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I just found this thread. Since I made the comment that started the whole conversation, I'd like to chime in here.
First of all, I agree with the opening post of this thread. I think that perhaps my comments on the other thread were just misunderstood.
I believe that if we relied on the Spirit to make sure no one was missed when taking care of each other, then the Spirit would tell us if someone was getting missed. This doesn't mean that we wouldn't be making our own choices most of the time about who we were going to reach out to and befriend. The ideal I envision is a state where every person is already befriending those around them who they feel could use the help or even who they feel could help them come closer to Christ. But being in tune with the Spirit, these people would also pay attention to any promptings letting them know of additional people they hadn't thought of who need help. So it would be a balance of personal choice and spiritual guidance, just like Dragon speaks of in the opening post.
I like the idea that if we have knowledge from the Spirit, we should act on it without feeling the need to gain additional spiritual manifestations. I believe the Lord has been teaching me that concept but I didn't quite know how to put it into words and hadn't quite identified what it was I was being taught. There were a few times when I was looking for help from the Spirit when I should have already known, but was afraid to go with my former spiritual promptings because the world had such a different view and it was hard for me to go against the grain. In these cases, the Spirit kept asking what I already knew, instead of giving me the answer. It's nice to have those experiences put into words.
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2284 is a reply to message #2140] |
Sun, 10 March 2013 22:24 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
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Location: Las Vegas
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Dragon wrote on Thu, 31 January 2013 09:46When discussing Home Teaching on this forum, it was suggested assignments should not be necessary if we were all righteous enough to live every moment by the direction of the Holy Ghost. My response was to say this would lead a person to become a 'slave to the Holy Ghost'. So what does this mean?
I mean when you stop making your own decisions and turn at every moment to the Holy Ghost, then you have become a being who is acted upon rather than one who is acting. Agency means making a choice and seeing it through, then accepting the consequences. If every moment of our lives can be dictated by another entity, be it another man, a prophet, a spouse, a demon, an angel, or even the Holy Ghost, then we would take no responsibility for our actions because we would only be doing what we are told.
I see where you are coming from Dragon, and I would agree with you that we need to learn self reliance. But I know one thing that you may not or that you may not have taken into consideration. And I can see that in some threads we have talked about Abraham offering Issac and what would happen if Abraham defied God like Moses did. I also agree that we should not make ourselves slaves to anyone.
And, I know what you are talking about when people trying to do good, will pray about every little thing looking for an "Outside" approval from someone else to tell them what to do thereby shutting their own mind and spirit off to become a slave to God or some being outside of them.
I think I know where you are coming from, and I agree with all these points and the problems associated with them. But, I know and take into consideration one thing that negates all these concerns when it comes to the Holy Ghost. I know who the Holy Ghost is.
I know this is discussed in another thread, but I am not sure anyone nailed it down yet. Here is a quick overview of who the Holy Ghost is:
When we were spirits, we progressed as far as a spirit was able to progress. We could not progress further without getting bodies and learning to enjoy and overcome the experiences of the physical plain.
How far can a spirit progress?
A spirit can progress to being a God. For example, Jehovah was the pre-mortal Jesus and was a God. We also know that the Holy Ghost is a God and is Currently referred to as a Spirit.
So, we know that A)we can become Gods as spirits and that B)we progressed as far as we could in the spirit world without a body.
A + B = C)We were Gods before we were born as mortals with bodies.
Our spirit's ARE Gods. Our bodies are temples of our Spirits or God.
Quote:1 Corinthians 3:16 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
There are 3 members of the God head, and of the 3 members we are told that we can be forgiven for blaspheme against all but one, the Holy Ghost. Why is that? We are told in the next verse;
Quote:1 Corinthians 3:17 - If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Our spirit/God has come to earth to get a body. Not just a body, but one that it can use as an eternal and glorified being. We are told to subject our bodies to our spirit/God. Our body has a mind of its own called the natural man, conscious mind or ego. The ego doesn't realize that there is a spirit/God/subconscious that is far more powerful and that determines what happens to us in our lives. Our spirit IS our God. It IS us as well.
Being in subjection to the Holy Ghost is being in subjection to yourself or the God that gives you life. The God whose temple you are and the God who decides whether or not you/your body/ego will make a good eternal partner.
And in our lives, the Holy Ghost is more important than Heavenly Father and Christ combined. We can blaspheme God the Father and God the son, but if we Blaspheme God the Holy Ghost, who is the spirit that inhabits our bodies, or in other words US, then we are truly damned and cannot be forgive in this world or the world to come.
Receiving the Holy Ghost is to recognize and accept the influence of the Spirit in you. Carnal man/ego goes around living life as if the spirit/Holy Ghost/God doesn't exist in them. When we pray, we receive answers from our spirit. It tells us all things what we should do because it is us. It is our "Jiminy Cricket". When we receive the Holy Ghost, we are receiving our own spirit into our lives to guide us and teach us and help us. We are accepting our own link to the eternal. The Holy Ghost is our very own personal God that knows us because it is us.
Above all, to thine own self be true! So, following the Holy Ghost is following your "Higher Self" or your own conscience.
Quote:Isaiah 41:23
23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
Quote:Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Quote:John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Seeker
~ Seeker
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2300 is a reply to message #2291] |
Tue, 12 March 2013 16:32 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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SingleToHisGlory wrote on Mon, 11 March 2013 22:14Seeker, your interpretation of the personage of the HG makes sense, especially if we take free agency into account. So, if the HG is our spirit and is our subconscious mind, then what is our conscious mind? Or could it be that a HG is an intelligence, which is endowed with a spirit when it is born/organized in a spirit world, and which later receives a body when it is born in a physical world? In that case, is a subconscious mind an intelligence while a conscious mind is a spirit in its fallen/veiled state? Also, what is the Light of Christ?
As I understand it, everything is made of light or energy or Intelligence. The Light of Christ or Light of Love refers to the "All God" or "Universal/Ultimate God" which is the first God or Truth. We become Gods by aligning our selves with the Light of Christ which is the light of Truth. If God our Father were to leave His alignment with the Light of Truth, for example by lying, then He would cease to be a God.
Intelligence is part of the Light of Christ or "All God". Our intelligence/God was organized into a spirit body. The spirit body eventually became "One" with the Light of Christ or Intelligence assigned to it. Now, there is no difference between them as they do not fight each other and are united in will, purpose and understanding. When communication between the spirit body and the intelligence is perfected, the spirit Body gains access to all the powers and abilities of an intelligence and the intelligence gains access to all the powers and abilities of a Spirit body. This makes the Spirit a God and the God a spirit.
But neither a spirit nor an intelligence has the ability to interact with and experience the physical world like a body does. So, they take on Flesh. Now, we are part spirit body and part intelligence. But we are very much stuck in the physical world.
When the union between spirit and body become more perfected, we will gain all the powers and abilities of both our intelligence and our spirits. For example, we learn to see with our spiritual eyes and our physical eyes, both and at the same time. We learn to access the powers of our spirits and our intelligences and they learn to access the powers of the physical body until all three become "One" and cannot be distinguished as separate. Then we move on to the next...
Quote:Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. - The Guide to the Scriptures - Intelligence
That is a high level overview, not sure if it makes sense.
~ Seeker
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2303 is a reply to message #2300] |
Tue, 12 March 2013 17:46 |
SingleToHisGlory
Messages: 28
Registered: December 2012
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Thank you, Seeker. Yes, it does make sense. Now, if I understand it correctly, a part of the Light of Christ is our intelligence, the Holy Ghost is our spirit and our intelligence in their perfected/united state, and just men made perfect are those who are able to achieve that perfect union between their body and their Holy Ghost. Once our bodies and the Holy Ghost become "one", we are able to converse with the Lord in the True Order of Prayer, receive our C&E made sure through the veil and come into the presence of the Savior and the Heavenly Father, which is also the ultimate purpose of our probationary state. Achievement of any lesser degree of that union between the body and the Holy Ghost receives a lesser glory.
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2304 is a reply to message #2303] |
Tue, 12 March 2013 23:19 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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SingleToHisGlory wrote on Tue, 12 March 2013 17:46Thank you, Seeker. Yes, it does make sense. Now, if I understand it correctly, a part of the Light of Christ is our intelligence, the Holy Ghost is our spirit and our intelligence in their perfected/united state, and just men made perfect are those who are able to achieve that perfect union between their body and their Holy Ghost. Once our bodies and the Holy Ghost become "one", we are able to converse with the Lord in the True Order of Prayer, receive our C&E made sure through the veil and come into the presence of the Savior and the Heavenly Father, which is also the ultimate purpose of our probationary state. Achievement of any lesser degree of that union between the body and the Holy Ghost receives a lesser glory.
Yes, partly...
Quote:just men made perfect are those who are able to achieve that perfect union between their body and their Holy Ghost
Not really. Just men made perfect do not have a perfect union. Those who have their C&E are "acceptable" and the Spirit says that the body will work and has proven that it will eventually achieve that perfect union...
~ Seeker
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2337 is a reply to message #2140] |
Sat, 23 March 2013 22:03 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Seeker,
I understand where you are coming from. The idea that our own Spirits are the Holy Spirit is an appealing thought. But I see no truth in it. If my Spirit were my own personal Holy Ghost, it would imply my thoughts are separate from my soul, rather than deriving from it. Looking to my own Spirit for guidance in the darkest times implies my Spirit is separate from my body. It suggests the GIFT of the Holy Ghost is meaningless, as that Spirit is already with me, from before I am born. There are so many concepts of the Gospel which I already have knowledge of which refute the concept of my own Spirit being the Holy Ghost.
Thus, as I said before, relying upon anyone else, whether it be the Prophet, the Holy Ghost, Jesus, or God above and beyond our own conscience, will only get you so far. At some point we have to rely on our own ability to know what is right and what is wrong. That is the point of this whole thread, which has gone much too long and spurred much debate. Debate is healthy, so long as hatred does not enter therein.
- Dragon
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2650 is a reply to message #2140] |
Sat, 10 August 2013 14:34 |
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Elejian
Messages: 39
Registered: June 2013
Location: United States
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One definition of slave is "a person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something." Using this definition (the word "excessively" is key), I agree with Dragon.
The Holy Ghost can show us all things what we should do (2 Nephi 32:3, 5). To me, the word "should" means that if there is a decision of moral or otherwise significant consequence to make, the Holy Ghost will guide us.
The Holy Ghost does not need to show us all things to do. Unless the salvation of someone's soul depends on it, we do not need to be shown the rate we need to blink our eyes or breathe. Do we need spiritual guidance on whether to brush our upper teeth first or our lower teeth first? Or every single time we walk, do we need to be shown where exactly to place each footstep, or the exact angle our arms should make relative to our body?
Does the Holy Ghost (or "Higher Self" for those who agree with Seeker's terminology) really need to tell us where to put our pen down, to the very millimeter, on the table?!
To me, there are at least 4 reasons why the sacrament prayer for the water does not have the word "always." This is 1 of them. We do not always need the Spirit guiding every microsecond of our lives.
Here's a non-LDS quote: "The overwhelming majority of facts, the sights and sounds that are around us every second and the relationships among them and everything in our memory--these have no Quality, in fact have a negative quality. If they were all present at once our consciousness would be so jammed with meaningless data we couldn't think or act. So we preselect on the basis of Quality . . . Quality preselects what data we're going to be conscious of, and it makes this selection in such a way as to best harmonize what we are with what we are becoming" (Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values, 280). Substitute the word "Quality" with "(the) Spirit" if necessary.
We fallible humans do need to be guided in all of the things that matter most.
But to wish to be guided in every single aspect of our lives could change us into letter-of-the-law automatons.
Regarding the "we are the Holy Ghost" idea:
My own opinion is that things are rarely "all or none." To me, things are a matter of degree.
We are gods (to some degree). We are also lower than the dust of the earth (to some degree).
The Light of Christ (Spirit of the Gods) is everywhere. But it's not everywhere in the same intensity or degree.
Somewhere in this forum someone has already reminded us of Marion G. Romney's talk about the (at least) 3 degrees of the Light of Christ.
The idea of something everywhere, but in varying degrees, helps me deal with the following statement by Brigham Young: "Orson Pratt . . . believes . . . that universal space is filled with, and that every particle of it is a Holy Spirit, and that spirit is all powerful and all wise, full of intelligence and possessing all the attributes of all the Gods in eternity. . . . that theory, though apparently very plausible and beautiful, is not true . . . Brother Hyde was upon this same theory once, and in conversation with brother Joseph Smith advanced the idea that eternity or boundless space was filled with the Spirit of God, or the Holy Ghost. After portraying his views upon that theory very carefully and minutely, he asked brother Joseph what he thought of it? He replied that it appeared very beautiful, and that he did not know of but one serious objection to it. Says Brother Hyde, 'What is that?' Joseph replied, 'it is not true'" (Journal of Discourses 4:267, red added).
I don't think he disagrees that the Light of Christ is everywhere (even if close to zero, like in outer darkness), but that he disagrees that the spiritual level of the Holy Ghost is everywhere.
Let's say I use a scale from almost 0% to above 100%. To use some arbitrary numbers:
So let's pretend the "average" person who has the light that enlighteneth everyone is a god-10%. (And therefore is 90% less than the dust of the earth.)
When you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, you become a god-20%. (And I should say their maximum capacity is 20%; they may not always function at a level of 20%, since a person could choose to live by a lower level of light and truth. In this way, a righteous non-LDS functioning at 10% is more righteous than an LDS functioning at 5%.)
When you receive the more sure word of prophecy, you become a god-30%.
When you are exalted (truly receiving the fulness of the Holy Ghost), you become a god-100%.
Seeker wrote on Sun, 10 March 2013 21:24So, we know that A)we can become Gods as spirits and that B)we progressed as far as we could in the spirit world without a body.
A + B = C)We were Gods before we were born as mortals with bodies.
I'm trying to understand premise B in the above syllogism.
What scriptures or quotes support premise B?
Abraham 3 could imply that some were more valiant than others in the premortal existence. That could mean that some (Cain, for example), did not progress as far as they could have.
I don't mind if we say we were holy spirits to some degree, but not to the full extent in the premortal existence. We are children of God, but D&C 93:38 could imply we made mistakes there, and only the Firstborn was 100% holy. "Ye are gods," but in my opinion, not to the fullest extent possible, yet.
In my opinion, I don't think we were 100% Gods and had the true fulness of the Holy Ghost premortally. For one thing, that could mean that it is possible to permanently fall from Godhood (after the Final Judgment).
[Updated on: Sat, 10 August 2013 20:05] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: How can one be a slave to the Holy Ghost? Is that a bad thing? [message #2706 is a reply to message #2140] |
Mon, 26 August 2013 21:50 |
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Elejian
Messages: 39
Registered: June 2013
Location: United States
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In this month's Ensign article, "In His Own Time, in His Own Way," Elder Dallin H. Oaks wrote:
Quote:William E. Berrett, one of our finest gospel teachers, who served as an administrator at BYU and for the Church Educational System, said this about the matter of constant or continuous revelation: "Those who pray that the Spirit might give them immediate guidance in every little thing throw themselves open to false spirits that seem ever ready to answer our pleas and confuse us. . . . The people I have found most confused in this Church are those who seek personal revelations on everything. They want the personal assurance from the Spirit from daylight to dark on everything they do. I say they are the most confused people I know because it appears sometimes that the answer comes from the wrong source."
The Prophet Joseph Smith said something similar. When the Saints "supplicate at the throne of grace," he counseled, they shouldn't do so over trivial matters but rather should "pray earnestly for the best gifts." That is an important principle. We pray continuously for guidance, but we shouldn't expect continuous revelation. We expect continuing revelation, which is the continuing assurance of revelation whenever we seek guidance and our circumstances are such that a wise and loving Lord chooses to give it to us.
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