Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » Prophecies and Visions (Can a prophecy or vision be undone?)
| Prophecies and Visions [message #225] |
Tue, 22 February 2011 14:40  |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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While researching prophecies on the coming world wars, I encountered an opinion which I cannot refute, but cannot confirm. It is fairly clear that President George Albert Smith, shortly after becoming President of the Church, and shortly after the end of World War II, received a vision which disturbed him. This vision spoke of a nuclear war between the United States and Russia. There are several aspects of the vision which have come true, and others which have not yet happened. The question which was posed is this:
If someone is given a vision, someone who is in a position to do something about it, can they stop the vision from coming true?
This particular vision was never made officially public. There are multiple witnesses to its source being George Albert Smith. Is it possible that the actions of President Smith has prevented this particular war? Or merely delayed it? The actions he took were to send Elder Ezra Taft Benson to Europe to provide aid and relief to war torn Europe. Was this done because of the vision? If not, why did Pres. Smith never record the vision for the public to see? I know that viewing the future is difficult and can change.
While studying the publicly recorded prophecies, I have come to see that wars are of two types. First, those that improve the conditions for the spreading of the Gospel, and second, wars of destruction. I cannot understand how a nuclear war could possibly improve conditions for spreading the Gospel. Nuclear war is so destructive, how can it be anything but a war of complete destruction? World War II was ended by the use of two nuclear bombs. Now, sixty years later, the site of those bombings has large modern cities. But there is a big difference between a war ended by two nuclear bombs and a war started by the launching of nuclear bombs.
What do you know? What prophecies are there to support whether or not World War III will be a nuclear war? WWIII will clearly involve Russia attacking and invading the United States.
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: Prophecies and Visions [message #226 is a reply to message #225] |
Tue, 22 February 2011 21:27  |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Can a prophecy be avoided or changed? Yes, Absolutely without question!
We know that Jonah prophesied destruction which was never fulfilled. That destruction was not contingent on repentance or any other thing according to the prophecy.
Quote:And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. - Jonah 3:4
Immediately the people repented of their own will. Jonah had no reason to believe that their repenting would prevent the destruction because that wasn't part of the deal. And Jonah was angry at God for making it part of the deal.
What about something major like the flood? It would seem that such a major prophecy couldn't be avoided or changed, but the Lord through Noah said it could be avoided...
Quote:(Moses 8:24)Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not.
This prophecy was somewhat unique as all those that did gain the spirit avoided the flood via either the Ark or the City of Enoch, so the prophecy was fulfilled both ways.
~ Seeker
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| Re: Prophecies and Visions [message #227 is a reply to message #226] |
Wed, 23 February 2011 18:05 |
bishop
Messages: 144
Registered: July 2010
Location: USA
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Senior Member |
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In my own personal experience with prophecy, which is very limited, I have often felt that a negative vision or prophecy is given as a warning. It is designed to motivate us to do whatever we can to not allow it to happen. The Book of Mormon is replete with these kind of prophecies which mostly came true because the people did not repent.
On the other hand, when I have received positive prophecies, I feel that I am to work at making them come to pass. For example, if someone were promised in their patriarchal blessing that they would be married in the temple or go on a mission; they would have some control over this prophecy. I am coming to understand that the New Jerusalem and the Second Coming will be greatly influenced by how hard the righteous people work at making them an amazing reality.
Moroni, in Ether, gives an ominous prophetic warning to us about a secret combination that seeks to rule the earth:Moroni 8:23-26
Quote:
23Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain--and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.
24Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
25For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
26Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved
End Quote
This is a warning to us with a promise that we can be preserved if we are righteous. Are there enough righteous, and will the few who are righteous be preserved in their freedom, or will their blood cry from the dust for vengeance?
On the other hand, the books of Revelation, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Amos, 1 Nephi, 2 Nephi, and other scriptures have prophecies that are definitive. But I believe that even these prophecies can be to a greater degree or a lesser degree of goodness or evil, depending on our righteousness.
Then of course there is symbolism in prophecy, which can even make things more complicated.
I believe that [once again] we must rely upon the Holy Spirit to confirm all prophecies to us personally and how they apply to us. We must be as Nephi, and inquire of the Lord to know for ourselves. In this way, he confirmed the prophecies of his father and of Isaiah. He didn't just take their word for it-neither can we afford to.
When I think of how obscure the fulfillment of the prophecies of Elijah returning and of Martin Harris taking the Book of Mormon manuscript to Charles Anthon as a fulfillment of Isaiah 29:11 ["I cannot read a sealed book"}, I realize that much of what has been prophesied may never be fulfilled in the way that one would think.
It would be so much easier if President Monson would stand up and tell us that the Russians are coming-or not, and when. Instead he says, "The future is as bright as your faith." That is profound and prophetic, but not the specific stuff we want to hear.
We are left with gleaning what we can from all the sources we can and then getting our own spiritual confirmation. This is part of what my friend calls "the Big Let Down." It just never gets easy to get new information. However, I find that this forum can be helpful to those of us who are searching to find the answers. I appreciate Dragon's telling us about this vision so that we can each receive our own personal inspiration on the topic.
Bishop
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| Re: Prophecies and Visions [message #229 is a reply to message #227] |
Thu, 24 February 2011 12:15 |
bishop
Messages: 144
Registered: July 2010
Location: USA
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Senior Member |
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I would recommend that you read Cleon Skousen's book: The Cleansing of America. He wrote this book before his death, but told his children not to publish it until the financial crises should come. They published it in 2010. [As a side note, the financial crises may be just beginning].
He predicts that after the financial crises [or as a result of it], there will be a major plague which will wipe out all the evil people in the U.S., including the whole government structure. Those who survive will flea to Zion for refuge from the desolation. A new government based on a more Constitutional law, but with more localized leadership will be formed, in preparation for living a consecrated way of life, a Millennial way of life. He says that the Western Hemisphere will become isolated from the rest of the world by raging seas. Then the lost ten tribes will come to Zion, bearing great wealth with which to decorate the New Jerusalem.
He believes that, in the mean time, Russia will systematically start conquering the world. When the ten tribes come down from the north, Russia will try to intercept them, but because of their superior power, Russia will be repelled. He claims that the raging seas will keep Russia from attacking the U.S..Eventually, Russia and the rest of the world will attack Israel, setting up for the Savior to save Jerusalem in a dramatic fashion.
I have read his book twice. I have a hard time buying into the whole scenario, but I do believe that there will be a big plague which will be quite devastating to our country. I believe it will be in fulfillment of Isaiah 3:
16¶Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.
18In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,
19The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
20The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,
21The rings, and nose jewels,
22The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,
23The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.
24And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of ca stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.
25Thy amen shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.
26And her agates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.
This prophecy does state that the men will fall by the sword, implying that the plague will come during war time, whether on this land or elsewhere.
After-wards, Isaiah make the following prophesy in Isaiah 4:
1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
2In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
This is the good news, that after the terrible war and plague, the branch of the Lord will be beautiful. This fits with Skousen's theory, except he doesn't show us getting into a war, as I recall.
I hope this is helpful
Bishop
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| Re: Prophecies and Visions [message #230 is a reply to message #229] |
Thu, 24 February 2011 16:49 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Bishop, Seeker,
I appreciate your comments. The prophecies I am working from delineate between WWIII and WWIV. The plague as described above, and resulting conditions, are described as part of WWIV. The distinguishing features of WWIII is the invasion of the US by Russia and China near the end, but as part of a war with Christians on one side, and Muslims, Buddhists, and Communists on the other.
Current events in the Middle East will likely result in communistic countries in Muslim countries. This will strengthen the ties between Russia, China, and Muslim nations. Yes, I believe Russia will return to Communism. This WWIII cannot be avoided, as it is the opening scene of the whore of all the earth, also known as the dragon with seven heads and ten horns. The issue is whether nuclear weapons will be launched in this war. During WWIII the seas will be unavailable for commerce or travel due to the war ships which will be too numerous to ignore. And the skies will likewise be unavailable for commerce or travel for the same reason. These are the aspects of WWIII which are shown in the visions I am already working from. My goal here, is to write a book.
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: Prophecies and Visions [message #232 is a reply to message #230] |
Thu, 24 February 2011 18:15 |
bishop
Messages: 144
Registered: July 2010
Location: USA
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Senior Member |
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Dragon, your explanation of why the seas are closed off makes much more sense than Skousen's. It is very logical to see that the U.S. is becoming more and more vulnerable as we spend our military strength in the Mid-east and as the financial crisis worsens. As the dollar collapses as the world's currency, we will truly be prime pickings. Russia and China are growing stronger. They are also growing chummier. They recently signed a contract for Russia to supply China with all their oil needs. Thus the Mid-east crisis will not affect them the way it will affect our country. We will truly be hurting for oil!
The other side of the story is that the U.S. has huge oil reserves in the Rocky Mountains, Alaska, and the Gulf of Mexico that the government has not allowed to be tapped. I think I smell a secret combination setting us up for this invasion. Without fuel, it will be very hard to fight a war!
You had better write your book fast, or it will be a history book, rather than a book on prophecy.
Bishop
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| Re: Prophecies and Visions [message #570 is a reply to message #232] |
Wed, 27 June 2012 13:57 |
kenh
Messages: 62
Registered: June 2012
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Member |
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9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.
10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord--having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise--behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.
11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.
The judgments of God will be poured out upon the wicked to the extent that our elders from far and near will be called home. Or, in other words, the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on will be carried to the Jews." (Deseret News, Church Department, May 23, 1931, p. 3. Originally given in May 1868.)
Harold B. Lee shared the following story concerning a statement made by J. Reuben Clark, a member of the First Presidency under David O. McKay: "We heard him (President Clark) reply in answer to a question as to why he had put his life savings into his presently owned Grantsville ranch. He said, 'This is all I have to leave to my family when I die, and if they are not too lazy to work it, they won't starve. I have told them that when the first atomic bomb is dropped in America, that they are to go out there on the ranch and stay until it is over.' This last seemed not only to be wise counsel, but also a prophecy." (Improvement Era, Sept. 1961, p, 4)
Isaiah 60: 1-4, 8
Apply this to the post cleansing of the church and the country in America.
1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. (The church membership has been purified and accepted of the Lord)
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. (Darkness from war and desolation still linger and the survivors are in spiritual darkness because they have not yet been converted)
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. (We hold up the Constitution as our standard and the people in America and freedom loving people all over the world see that... truly an Ensign to the nations)
4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. (People in America begin to gather towards the beacon of hope that is the Latter-day saints in the Rocky Mountains)
8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? (They come in groups with what they can carry, making their way across the plains from the east to us in the west)
Orson Pratt said, "Now how do we know, but when the gates of Zion shall be open to the nations, that the Gentiles will come flocking in, like a flowing stream? A flowing stream is one that runs continually: and the Gentiles will, in that day, come to us as a flowing stream, and we shall have to set our gates open continually, they will come as clouds and as doves in large flocks..." (JD Vol. 3 pg. 16) (The Zion mentioned here is not the City of Zion because the Gentiles do not go there only the pure in heart do)
Heber C. Kimball said, "The day will come when the people of the United States will come lugging their bundles under their arms, coming to us for bread to eat." (JD Vol. 4 pg. 106)
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| Re: Prophecies and Visions [message #577 is a reply to message #570] |
Wed, 27 June 2012 18:32 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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These are some good quotes, and some good analysis. I am aware that after the plague, the survivors will have to flee to Utah, Arizona, Idaho or perish. Every settlement east of the Mississippi will be devastated and abandoned. Thus the land will be cleansed. Imagine the trial of faith when many of the Saints are surviving on their year supply of food, already stretched thin by sharing it with the 'unwise virgins' who didn't get a year's supply. Then, this enormous group of people seeking help, but not gospel, pours into the land, and the church leadership encourages everyone to share with them, as well.
If we are not truly prepared for that day, many will go hungry for months. I doubt they will be allowed to starve, but never being satisfied. If you had already gone through half of your year's supply, and knew it would be at least four months until more food was available, would you share it with these refugees?
But then, those questions are left for book 3 or book 4. Right now I'm still focused on Book 1, which I hope to get written in the next six months. I have been delayed from writing it until now. I feel something is about to happen which will help me understand everything better, and make writing the books easier.
Dragon
- Dragon
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