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Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » Sunday Preparation - Talks & Lessons » Gospel Doctrine D&C 8 (Preparation for and Discussion about The Restoration of the Priesthood)
Gospel Doctrine D&C 8 [message #2217] Wed, 20 February 2013 07:26 Go to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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I came across the following scripture in my studies for this lesson.
D&C 84:19-22
And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.


There has been discussion on this forum that ordinances of the Priesthood are only there to prepare people to receive the higher covenant and that it is possible to bypass these ordinances and see the face of God the Father without such ordinances as Baptism. These verses seem quite clear in declaring we cannot bypass these ordinances. The only possible way through this is to say the power of godliness may be made manifest unto men in the Spirit. If so, how did Joseph see God the Father and God the Son without the Priesthood being first restored?


- Dragon
Re: Gospel Doctrine D&C 8 [message #2218 is a reply to message #2217] Wed, 20 February 2013 11:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FreddyV is currently offline  FreddyV
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That is interesting. I always read that scripture to mean that the greater priesthood, or Melchizidek priesthood is needed to stand in the presence of the Father.

Quote:
30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world. ( JST, Genesis 14)


Notice how this scripture states that those ordained unto this priesthood should have power to stand in the presence of God. This scriptures also lists many other powers associated with those who hold this priesthood. I note that there are no ordinances listed.

I have always understood that the ordinances are symbolic and teach us from where we receive true power in the priesthood. We read about this in the Book of Mormon.

Quote:
30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.
31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come. (Mosiah, Chapter 13)


I may have a different understanding than what you are stating here. I have also understood that the ability to stand in God's presence always requires priesthood, even prior to the foundation of this world. Anyone who has stood in the presence of God has received the greater priesthood. However, if we do not come back to it in this life, "wo" unto us!

Quote:

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.
48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world. ( Doctrine and Covenants, Section 84)



Re: Gospel Doctrine D&C 8 [message #2219 is a reply to message #2217] Wed, 20 February 2013 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeremy is currently offline  Jeremy
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Dragon
If so, how did Joseph see God the Father and God the Son without the Priesthood being first restored?

If you are referring to "The First Vision", it was a vision. It was "in the spirit".

However, Joseph was foreordained. Meaning he had the priesthood before receiving it "by the laying on of hands". The ordination in the physical realm is symbolic of the real ordination. Priesthood is not given to man from man. It is given to man from heaven.

The physical ordination is symbolic in that one must receive the priesthood by the proper authority (heaven and once given said authority the holder of that priesthood can act in the name of God (doing his work by the direction of revelation).

No slave to the spirit here. It is a matter of becoming one with the Son as he is one with the Father in that His work becomes YOUR work...and when you converse with HIM and discuss THE work it is referenced by OUR work.
Re: Gospel Doctrine D&C 8 [message #2220 is a reply to message #2217] Wed, 20 February 2013 23:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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Location: Davis County, UT
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Dragon wrote on Wed, 20 February 2013 07:26
I came across the following scripture in my studies for this lesson.
D&C 84:19-22
And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.


There has been discussion on this forum that ordinances of the Priesthood are only there to prepare people to receive the higher covenant and that it is possible to bypass these ordinances and see the face of God the Father without such ordinances as Baptism. These verses seem quite clear in declaring we cannot bypass these ordinances. The only possible way through this is to say the power of godliness may be made manifest unto men in the Spirit. If so, how did Joseph see God the Father and God the Son without the Priesthood being first restored?


14 And they did also bury their weapons of war, according as their brethren had, and they began to be a righteous people; and they did walk in the ways of the Lord, and did observe to keep his commandments and his statutes.

15 Yea, and they did keep the law of Moses; for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming, and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.

16 Now they did not suppose that salvation came by the law of Moses; but the law of Moses did serve to strengthen their faith in Christ; and thus they did retain a hope through faith, unto eternal salvation, relying upon the spirit of prophecy, which spake of those things to come.


~Jules

[Updated on: Wed, 20 February 2013 23:18]

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Re: Gospel Doctrine D&C 8 [message #2709 is a reply to message #2220] Sat, 31 August 2013 18:09 Go to previous message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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I must say, quoting another scripture when I have questions about the one I posted does not seem a sufficient reply. It may seem obvious to you how one scripture clears up the confusion of another, but please understand, I have read all the scriptures. I know the verses you reference, and I am in need of YOUR insight, rather than a reminder of that which I knew before posting. Please assume when posting that I know the quote you are giving and that i don't see the 'obvious' connection.

There is some debate about whether baptism, the sacrament, the Aaronic Priesthood, and even Temple Ordinances are part of the Law of Moses. I have not seen sufficient logic to conclude they are. The scriptures I quoted indicate to me there is true power in the ordinances themselves. Not to say they can by themselves save a man (or woman) but that in the performing of the ordinances, the path to God is made manifest and more easily walked.


- Dragon
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