Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » Current Church Doctrine » Mormon Guilt (A discussion of he greatest deception slowing the progress of Church members)
| Mormon Guilt [message #292] |
Sat, 16 April 2011 20:54  |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Historically speaking, one could argue the Jews invented guilt. They had much to feel guilty about in Old Testament times. They were resistant to God's direction and quick to abandon Him in favor of more popular gods. What the Jews invented, the Catholics perfected. The Catholic church ruled the world for a long time based on making people feel guilty for their sins and lack of piety. Certain aspects of Christianity were adapted to make the people dependent upon the priests for instruction and wisdom. The Bible was only available in a dead language, and the majority of people could not read even their own language. The purchase of indulgences is another example of making the masses dependent on the church for communication and communion with God. They even went so far as to teach people to pray to saints rather than to God Himself. The result of all this misinformation and twisting of religion is to create a group of people who don't believe themselves worthy of the redemption and miracles Jesus taught all should achieve.
Since the protestant religions were mostly based on Catholicism, and the Church of Jesus Christ has acquire many of its members from those religions, some of these ideas have been absorbed into the culture of the church while at the same time being contrary to church doctrine. Among them are the following mis-beliefs:
1. Everyone sins every day, or even every hour. To think we do not sin all the time is the sin of arrogance.
2. We cannot have our Calling and Election made sure until we are perfect. No man can be perfect in this life.
3. In order to experience Miracles or see angels, you must be a General Authority. Thus, if you see angels, or work miracles, don't talk about them.
Can you think of other examples?
- Dragon
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| Re: Mormon Guilt [message #307 is a reply to message #293] |
Mon, 25 April 2011 20:29  |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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2 weeks ago while visiting the Florida Keys, the teacher talking about Charity... She read the following scripture:
Quote:"And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. - Moroni 7:45"
Then she said, "You can change Charity to Love and it still works."
Quote:"And Love suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. - Moroni 7:45"
Then she pointed out that you can replace it with Christ and it still works,
Quote:"And Christ suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. - Moroni 7:45"
The she said, "Now put your own name in it and see what happens..."
Quote:"And (Your Name Here) suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. - Moroni 7:45"
It really sounded good until she finished with, "See how it just doesn't work when you put your own name in it? That's because we aren't like Christ. We need him to make up the difference for us because he is all those things and no matter how hard we try it just isn't who we are. I am so grateful that he is all those things for me..."
~ Seeker
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| Re: Mormon Guilt [message #312 is a reply to message #310] |
Wed, 27 April 2011 13:53 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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(Silence)
LOL, The spirit constrains me that I should not speak...
LOL
~ Seeker
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| Re: Mormon Guilt [message #538 is a reply to message #468] |
Sun, 24 June 2012 14:33 |
bishop
Messages: 144
Registered: July 2010
Location: USA
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Senior Member |
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I was blown away a few years ago when a member of our stake presidency told about how he is always sinning and always having to repent. It is shocking to hear this protestant doctrine taught from the pulpit, especially by those who are "most faithful." I have to agree with Dragon. Once I was converted to the gospel, I truly had no desire to do evil. The doctrine of becoming cleansed and having no desire to do evil is not compatible with the doctrine that we sin constantly and are in constant need to repent.
I have to say that I liked the above mentioned Sunday School teacher's lesson until she kicked her class out of possibly being able to put their names in that scripture. Perhaps it would have been better stated as a goal to maintain and improve upon for those who have received a mighty change in their hearts and as a goal for those who have not felt that change.
Bishop
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| Re: Mormon Guilt [message #1738 is a reply to message #538] |
Wed, 26 December 2012 10:35 |
JustMe
Messages: 20
Registered: December 2012
Location: Utah
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Junior Member |
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I guess I don't get this. I always feel bad when I do something wrong--and it's kept me from making any major mistakes throughout my life. How I wish my ex-husband would've felt a little guilt now and again!
Even though I have no desire to sin, I still do--yell at my kids, judge others unrighteously, and right now I really want to strangle a certain 14 yr. old boy who took unrighteous liberties with my 13 yr. old daughter! In fact, I want to do a whole lot more than strangle him!
So help me understand this--I sin, I feel guilty, I repent, I need the Savior every day. ?!?! How is that wrong?
~JustMe
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| Re: Mormon Guilt [message #1770 is a reply to message #1740] |
Sat, 29 December 2012 18:28 |
Ashleyd
Messages: 100
Registered: May 2012
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Senior Member |
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I like the questions Just Me asked and I am hoping bishop and others will chime in. I know I have received my Calling and Election Made Sure. But even still I sin and feel like repenting. Even if I know repentance doesn't quite work the same way. I still feel like I owe it to the Lord to say I am sorry. And I even at times feel like asking for forgiveness even though I know I have already been forgiven. But even more importantly it seems like some of you are saying once you experienced the change you never sin anymore. If that is the case than I am far worse off than I thought. And that makes me question everything. Maybe Im just not the same caliber of person but I sin all the time still. Either when I momentarily lose patience with one of my kids or go through a weak spell where I watch useless tv shows or movies I normally have no desire to watch. There are always ups and downs for me. It's not like that for anyone else here? To say someone doesn't ever sin seems to imply that person has reached perfection? Can someone help me understand this better?
[Updated on: Sat, 29 December 2012 18:29] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Mormon Guilt [message #1776 is a reply to message #403] |
Sat, 29 December 2012 20:21 |
SingleToHisGlory
Messages: 28
Registered: December 2012
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Junior Member |
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Ashleyd wrote on Sun, 27 May 2012 22:32I know I'll sin again no matter how much I hate it when I do.
Here is a definition of "sin" taken from http://www.lds.org/topics/sin?lang=eng
Quote:To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17).
Ashleyd,
To me the examples of your "sins" that you've shared with us sound more like transgressions and not sins. Speaking of which, is there a difference in consequences of sins compared to the consequences of transgressions? Is there a difference in the requirements of the atonement for sins vs. transgressions?
Quote:And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it". (Alma 34:8)
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| Re: Mormon Guilt [message #1778 is a reply to message #1776] |
Sat, 29 December 2012 20:39 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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SingleToHisGlory wrote on Sat, 29 December 2012 20:21Ashleyd wrote on Sun, 27 May 2012 22:32I know I'll sin again no matter how much I hate it when I do.
Here is a definition of "sin" taken from http://www.lds.org/topics/sin?lang=eng
Quote:To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17).
Ashleyd,
To me the examples of your "sins" that you've shared with us sound more like transgressions and not sins. Speaking of which, is there a difference in consequences of sins compared to the consequences of transgressions? Is there a difference in the requirements of the atonement for sins vs. transgressions?
Quote:And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it". (Alma 34:8)
I like this Single, thank you for the reminder about sins vs. transgressions!
~Jules
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| Re: Mormon Guilt [message #1779 is a reply to message #1770] |
Sat, 29 December 2012 20:53 |
bishop
Messages: 144
Registered: July 2010
Location: USA
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Senior Member |
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Okay. JustMe and Ashleyd, you make a very good point. You are correct! Guilt is a tool, a step to repentance. We should feel guilt from time to time. It is a very Telestial thing, to be sure. It is hopefully what motivates us to move out of the Telestial kingdom.
It is much less of a Terrestrial tool, but still useful to help us repent. But at some point in our spiritual progression, repentance no longer means feeling guilty and changing our evil ways. It means changing from being good to becoming better, from being better to being more effective, more spiritual, more enlightened. At this point, repentance has little, if anything to do with guilt. It has more to do with earnestly wanting to become like God. At this point, we are more Celestial or at least upper Terrestrial. We have no motivation to do evil.
What we are talking about in the posts above is the tendency that modern-day ministers inside and outside of the Church have in creating an evil, depressing, godless pit of guilt for helpless victims to wallow in without any hope or means of escaping. In this case, sons and daughters of God [we mortals] are depicted as depraved, void, and evil beings who have very little, if any light, who must constantly welter in their guilt because they are so innately wicked!!!
We should feel guilt for sin and transgression. But once we have repented, we must be able to feel peace. Furthermore, once we have had a mighty change within us and our motivation is to do good continually, there is very little guilt. Instead, we look upon our errors and mistakes with patience and forgiveness and forbearance, just as we should look upon the mistakes and errors of our fellow beings. Because we are so motivated to do good continually, we instantaneously repent when we see our weaknesses. It is hard to feel much guilt when one repents so quickly!
So, Ashleyd, you are correct in pointing out that guilt is one of Satan's greatest tools!!!!! How can it be one of his greatest tools and one of God's greatest tools? It is to be used to extract us as quickly as possible from our erroneous ways rather than pin us to the bottom of hell.
So Dragon is pointing out how religions use guilt to control and spiritually starve their constituents rather than to inspire them to peace and perfection. Governments are prone to do the same thing. The Truth makes us free of guilt, not enslaved to it.
You see, when you feel guilty for yelling at your kids, and then you beat yourself up and get all depressed, you are of no use to anyone. You are not blessing your children and loving them [fixing the problem or "repenting"]; you are wallowing [I say this with sincere love], you are wallowing like a pig in your wonderful, ucky, sticky, all-encompassing guilt [to be a little sarcastic]. Your guilt has become an idol, an altar at which to worship your inabilities and your weaknesses. This is not a step to repentance [change]. It is a step in belittling a child of God [you]. It is a step in preventing change [repentance]. How can you repent, when you are having so much "fun" beating yourself up with the club of guilt!!! You are celebrating your inabilities instead of removing them. You are allowing your weaknesses to control you, rather than you overcoming them.
When we see a weakness, it is then that we feel remorse and then and there determine to put our hand in God's and remove it from our lives. We don't embrace the guilt-we embrace a new life without the flaw that we have now become aware of. We embrace the change until it becomes permanent. We visualize ourselves without the flaw, and we become a being without that particular fault. I hope you can see how different this is from embracing the guilt and making it the emphasis of repentance. The emphasis needs to be on the change, the new self, the greater light, the freer, more peaceful creature. The religions of our day emphasize the guilt, not the actual change. It is that simple: change the emphasis.
I have spoken very plainly here, only in the spirit of love and instruction. I suffered much depression over the years because I did not understand this principle of changing the emphasis of repentance to "change" rather than "guilt." I know whereof I speak, and I speak to free you of your guilt by giving you hope that you can alter your perception of repentance. Repentance is meant to transform us, not enslave us in our own depravity. So, anyway, you are correct that guilt is a part of repentance, but it is not the biggest, most important part-change is the biggest, overriding part of repentance. If you have read this far, thank you for your patience. I sincerely hope that it is of benefit to anyone who is mired in their own guilt.
Bishop
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| Re: Mormon Guilt [message #1784 is a reply to message #1780] |
Sun, 30 December 2012 13:07 |
bishop
Messages: 144
Registered: July 2010
Location: USA
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Senior Member |
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As a child, I was abused. I lived with much guilt until I was in my late twenties. Over time, I took the leap of faith to leave the security and comfort of living the negative life I was used to. I had to learn to forgive myself and be patient with myself, just as I did for my fellow man. It was scary, if not terrifying, to leave that life and accept the possibility that I was better than all that. I hope that anyone who reads this post, who deals with negativity and guilt, will be able to take the leap of faith and believe that they are truly a son or daughter of God, and that as such, they can learn to live guilt free by learning to repent quickly and not constantly condemn themselves.
Bishop
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I rarely find the truth offensive anymore. And the people on this website are so loving it would be difficult to be offended. It's difficult to figure out what things mean for me after having received my C&E. I feel remorse for unkind or unwise actions immediately. Often times when it comes to my children I stop whatever Im doing immediately. Sometimes with other things though, I let the guilt drive me into do something more until it drives a wedge between me and Heavenly Father and Christ. Usually, it is because I don't feel I have the strength to withstand the greater opposition I am experiencing and I am not ready to be more diligent and obedient to previous levels with the new increased opposition. Sometimes it can take me like a month even to get back on track. But each time it does seem like I have a renewed strength and it takes more to make me lose focus and less time to get back on track again. 
