I am actually interested in this topic. However, the learning I may gain by reading this particular thread is being hindered by two individuals who are obviously well-read on the subject and have developed entirely different conclusions, and are asserting their own views without the spirit of teaching - but with the spirit of proving any other viewpoint to be incorrect. Even when the two of you - KOZ and Dragon, "apologize" to each other, you insert passive aggressive comments, accusations, etc into your comments. Maybe there is a better way for the two of you to present your ideas and allow for the spirit to direct us readers to the truths that are likely contained within both views - so we can develop our own understandings.....?