Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » Christ being Born Again, Born of God (Discuss Christ's progression in life)
| Christ being Born Again, Born of God [message #1129] |
Wed, 19 September 2012 13:10  |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Quote:Heb. 5:5, 8-9, (Italics Added),
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he, (God the Father), that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee.
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Observation 1:
God said to Christ, "Today I have begotten thee". At some point, we all hope to become begotten of the Father and Firstborn heirs like Christ. To come to realize that we too have been "begotten of the Father".
Observation 2:
Christ learned obedience by the things he suffered. This is an interesting verse because it matches this one:
"D&C 105:5-6"5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.
Observation 3:
And the last point of the first quote, It says that Jesus was not born perfect, but was "made perfect", presumably after he "learned obedience".
This is particularly of interest as he `finishes the chapter talking about how his audience are babes who can only take milk because they are "unskilful in the word of righteousness" and that the "Strong Meat" is for those who can discern good from evil. As if he were encouraging to prepare for strong meat.
And the next chapter following right along with the same thought, he encourages us saying, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;"...
Any thoughts on the above?
~ Seeker
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| Re: Christ being Born Again, Born of God [message #1133 is a reply to message #1129] |
Wed, 19 September 2012 23:08  |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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OH wow Seeker, this is awesome! I have argued similar points with others who could not accept the concept that Christ was born anything less than a perfect god from the day of His birth - that He had no progression, no learning, but was only here to be an example of fulfiling the laws and ordinances, and make the sacrifice to go through the Atonement. I am going to enjoy this discussion I'm sure.
I do have one question though, and maybe it's just word-play, or maybe you have something more to offer me for clarification. Why is he called the ONLY begotten son... when even he, it seems, had to BECOME begotten? It seems that most everyone associates the word "begotten" with the fact that he was conceived by the Lord, with a caveat that we can become adopted sons and daughters. Is this a misuse of the word?
Thank you for starting this thread!
~Jules
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| Re: Christ being Born Again, Born of God [message #1139 is a reply to message #1129] |
Thu, 20 September 2012 16:26 |
zephyr
Messages: 129
Registered: May 2012
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=Seeker wrote on Wed, 19 September 2012 15:10]Quote:
And the next chapter following right along with the same thought, he encourages us saying, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;"...
Any thoughts on the above?
The Doctrine of Christ is:
1. Faith in Jesus Christ
2. Repentance
3. Baptism
4. Gift of the Holy Ghost
5. Endure to the end.
Leaving those, or should we say, going on from there or building on those, let us go on unto the higher subjects.
We can't really leave faith. Everything is a result of faith. Enoch said
... through faith I am in the bosom of the Father, and behold, Zion is with me."
(Moses 7:47)
and we cannot leave the Holy Ghost:
46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.
(D&C 84)
But, we can get beyond merely believing, and just making sure we have a testimony of the basics. We can go on and receive a testimony of the Resurrection, we can have faith to break mountains, not just to pay our tithing.
We can continue on until we receive all that God has to offer us in this life.
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| Re: Christ being Born Again, Born of God [message #1142 is a reply to message #1139] |
Thu, 20 September 2012 22:50 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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You make a good point zephyr and I agree about not leaving the Holy Ghost. However, consider the quote in Heb. 6 in context, it does tells us to "leave" and don't return because returning is not possible...
Quote: 1 Therefore [b]leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection[/b]; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God fresh, and put him to an open shame.
This is the same doctrine taught in D&C 132:26-27.
The principles listed are VERY specific and should not be confused with ones not listed. It also only applies to those who have made their C&E sure and have not yet become perfected, yet who would become Son's of Perdition if they fell to the point of shedding innocent blood, Christ's blood. They are:- repentance
- faith toward God - That he can save you.
- baptisms - For the remission of sins.
- laying on of hands - For the Holy Ghost, which you have denied...
- resurrection - Perhaps they live forever in their sins like Cain...Or they live until, like the Goat Azazel, they take their own lives...
- eternal judgment - Only applies to the Telestial Kingdom D&C 76
I understand that many of the early saints to who Paul spoke had received their Calling and Election made sure. Some even became perfect.
Quote:1 Cor. 2:6-8
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
~ Seeker
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| Re: Christ being Born Again, Born of God [message #1165 is a reply to message #1164] |
Sun, 23 September 2012 19:53 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Interesting. Your right, a change to a single word can make a great deal of difference. Where did you get that interpretation?
I looked up the verse in Strong's Concordance online and included hte breakdown of all the major words:
The word "Leave" means:
1) to send away
a) to bid going away or depart
1) of a husband divorcing his wife
b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
c) to let go, let alone, let be
1) to disregard
2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
a) of teachers, writers and speakers
3) to omit, neglect
d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
a) in order to go to another place
b) to depart from any one
c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned
d) to desert wrongfully
e) to go away leaving something behind
f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
i) abandon, leave destitute
The word "Principles" means:
1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
a) of angels and demons
The word "Doctrine" means:
1) of speech
a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
b) what someone has said
1) a word
2) the sayings of God
3) decree, mandate or order
4) of the moral precepts given by God
5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
c) discourse
1) the act of speaking, speech
2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
3) a kind or style of speaking
4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
d) doctrine, teaching
e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
1) reason would
f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
The word "Perfection" means:
1) perfection
a) the state of the more intelligent
b) moral and spiritual perfection
and is the same word translated to "perfectness" in this scripture: Col 3:14
The word "laying" means:
1) to cast down
a) to throw to the ground, prostrate
2) to put in a lower place
a) to lay (down) a foundation
The word "again" means:
1) anew, again
a) renewal or repetition of the action
b) again, anew
2) again, i.e. further, moreover
3) in turn, on the other hand
The word "Foundation" means:
1) laid down as a foundation, the foundation (of a building, wall, city)
2) metaph. the foundations, beginnings, first principals
a) of institution or system of truth
With these definitions, it could read:
Therefore leaving, (departing from, keeping no longer, omitting and giving up), the principles, (beginnings and origins), of the doctrines, (speech, words, sayings and decrees), of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, (the state of the more intelligent, moral and spiritual perfection); not laying, (casting down, prostrating or putting in a lower place), again, (as was already done, anew, further or repeatedly) the foundation, (first principles and beginnings), of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God...
~ Seeker
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| Re: Christ being Born Again, Born of God [message #1611 is a reply to message #1133] |
Sat, 15 December 2012 20:09 |
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Kingdom of ZION
Messages: 46
Registered: November 2012
Location: Colorado
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Member |
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JulesGP wrote on Wed, 19 September 2012 23:08OH wow Seeker, this is awesome! I have argued similar points with others who could not accept the concept that Christ was born anything less than a perfect god from the day of His birth - that He had no progression, no learning, but was only here to be an example of fulfiling the laws and ordinances, and make the sacrifice to go through the Atonement. I am going to enjoy this discussion I'm sure.
I do have one question though, and maybe it's just word-play, or maybe you have something more to offer me for clarification. Why is he called the ONLY begotten son... when even he, it seems, had to BECOME begotten? It seems that most everyone associates the word "begotten" with the fact that he was conceived by the Lord, with a caveat that we can become adopted sons and daughters. Is this a misuse of the word?
Thank you for starting this thread!
JulesGP, Only Begotten is sure... to sire and begat, but all things from G_d are spiritual and eternal first or the highest interpretation of the truths are revealed. The Eternal Father is saying that He (the Messiah) is the ONLY (Son) Begotten from this world. Only one through the GATE of Heaven at a time (narrow is that path, and VERY few there be that find it!). He was the Only one sire with a Celestial Body, receiving the divine genes, the perfected form, the markings of a G_d in the flesh, the birthright to overcome death, and the priesthood to pick up that lifeless body of flesh and bone. The Hopi's have it right. This is the fourth world and only one at a time can climb the great pine tree and climb through the hole in the sky into the next world.
Coming of Eliyah is yet future, the Restoration of Yesrael and the Kingdom or Gospel and the other 2/3's of the Book of Mormon will follow. If Eliyah does not come, then with the coming of the Messiah, the earth shall be cursed and utterly wasted!
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| Re: Christ being Born Again, Born of God [message #2021 is a reply to message #1129] |
Thu, 17 January 2013 17:04 |
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rdwhitaker
Messages: 118
Registered: December 2012
Location: Vancouver, Washington
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Senior Member |
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So much to digest here - but one glaring thing needs to be addressed.
The JST of Heb. 6:1 puts the word not in there: Therefore not leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection...
We don't 'leave' the principles of the doctrine of Christ as we progress to perfection! Those principles are found all along the path and especially at the end!
Ryan
Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!
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