Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » Salvation and the Atonement (Discussion of the logic behind Salvation and the Atonement)
| Salvation and the Atonement [message #21] |
Sat, 12 June 2010 08:28  |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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1 How Salvation and the Atonement work
2 I was in a Sunday School class recently, and the teacher indicated he couldn't explain how the atonement really works. This is a matter I have spent some time studying. Here is how I understand it.
3 Jehovah was the chosen Spirit in the pre-mortal existence destined to bring about the reunion of man and God. Only He could endure the trials of Gethsemane and the cross without reaching out with His power and ending it. Lucifer sought a way around that, but his way would not produce the trials necessary for true salvation and none would be in the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom because they would not have endured enough difficulties with their agency intact. The entire Plan of Salvation centers around how we use our agency.
4 The earth was created by decree of God the Eternal Father (Elohim). He spoke the decree, and it was done. That is, when He spoke, Jehovah obeyed and so did those who were with Him. The noble and great ones were most particularly involved in bringing about God's word to create the earth. Since God spoke and the world was, and Jehovah oversaw the creation of the earth, Jehovah is the Father of the Earth.
5 There was a law set forth before the world was that those who sinned must pay the consequences of their choices. Adam made the choice to separate himself from God that he could use his agency with knowledge. Because he fell, a Savior was needed to bring Adam and all men back into the presence of God. Only a perfect soul could return to God and none could be perfect without paying the eternal consequences of knowing they did wrong.
6 Another law was set in place before the world was that if a man was perfect, in some way, free of a particular sin, that he could take upon him the suffering of another and relieve that person of their burden. There is no such provision in the law of man.
7 D&C 19 teaches us how painful it was for Jesus to take upon Himself the suffering of all mankind everywhere and everywhen. As mighty as He was, He held back for a moment, finding the task difficult. He could have walked away, but since it was His mission on earth to complete that task, that would have been a sin for Him, and everyone would truly have been lost.
8 Glory be to the Father for He finished and drank that bitter cup. Since the cup is now emptied of the wrath of God upon men, all we must do is follow the repentance process and allow Jesus to take away that pain from us, for He has already suffered it.
9 Thus Mercy and Justice are in perfect harmony. The penalty is paid, satisfying Justice, and Jesus provides the Mercy by paying that for us if we do as He asks. Thus we become Children of Christ. Thus, He becomes the Father of Heaven, as everyone there is His child through the atonement. Thus He is the very Eternal Father of Heaven and Earth. Thus we are made whole to be reunited with God the Eternal Father.
- Dragon
[Updated on: Sun, 13 June 2010 07:40] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Salvation and the Atonement [message #23 is a reply to message #21] |
Sun, 13 June 2010 08:20  |
Amonhi
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
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A "Just" law & punishment, (on Earth and in Heaven), requires the blood of the murderer.
Alma 34:
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. (Christ included) Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
Will our law which is just allow another to suffer in jail for my crimes? No. The logic used here stands regardless of whether you use an other man, animal, virgin, son of God or even God to suffer on behalf of another. Justice is not fulfilled by someone else suffering the punishment of another. Even if that someone else is Jesus Christ. (Justice is fulfilled by a hidden loop hole but it requires that the atonement be completely fulfilled in us prior to the loop hole being exploited.)
Also notice that it says that the law of Moses will be fulfilled when there is a stop to the shedding of blood. The shedding of blood continues today, except among those for which the atonement has been fulfilled. This is why Christ said, "When ye have done it to the least of these, your brothern, ye have done it unto me".
As such, the law of Moses continues today but without animal sacrifices which have been replaced by the standing sacrifice of Jesus Christ. D&C 84 tells us that the law of Moses was given to those who "harden their hearts and cannot endure Gods presence". Read closely what the law of Moses is and you will see that it dominates our meetings today and is focused around the atonement principles.
D&C 84:
23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence ; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.
25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;
26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb.
The reason we do not have the sever penalties that were given under the law of Moses is because there has been a separation between church and state. So today, the church doesn't have the governing power to stone, kill or punish people except by means accepted by the political government.
The reason the Law of Moses or preparatory gospel dominates our meetings is because the majority of the members today have hardened their hearts and will not enter into God's presence just like the children of Israel under Moses.
Although Christ finished his "preparations", (D&C 19:19), the atonement has not been completed or fulfilled in the lives of most members, even today.
There is more to add. I began writing about this topic in the Deep Doctrine Forum, but quickly realized that because of the extremely deep nature of the topic and as it only applies to those who have received their calling and election made sure, I will add it to the Church of the Firstborn forum in a thread called, "Assent to the death of Christ". The following is a quick sum up: There comes a point in our progression when we can no longer "assent to the death of Christ", (D&C 132:27). At this point, the atonement has finally been fulfilled.
Amonhi
[Updated on: Sun, 13 June 2010 14:04] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Salvation and the Atonement [message #234 is a reply to message #21] |
Mon, 28 February 2011 21:17 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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I was rereading this after having read the Lev. 16 thread about the Day of Atonement.
Did that thread change your view on some of these points?
For example, point 6 doesn't seem right anymore.
In addition, I have often wondered what the atonement accomplishes. The idea is that by repenting we can erase the sin as if it never happened. For example, though your sins be as red as scarlet they shall be white as snow, etc...
Well, the atonement doesn't take away the natural consequences. For example, if you have a baby outside of wedlock from a one-night-stand, no matter how well you repent, the baby doesn't magically disappear. So it is with all the natural consequences. They all remain long after we have repented. So the Atonement doesn't undo anything.
It seems to help us deal with what was done not correct or undo what what was done. This is a problem for me because if I truly caused someone pain and I repent and attempt to repair the damage I caused them, I still can't make it right. I can't change the past and Christ doesn't change the past and it will never be truly fixed. For example, I may pay someone back for money I took from them, but if they had that money for the duration that I had taken it, they might have used it. Did they miss the opportunity to buy something or invest in something? No matter what I do, I can't give them there money back during the time I didn't have it.
I invested some $88K in a company that was supposed to give me a number of houses for it. After 2 years I still don't have the houses and I don't have the money to re-invest. They have agreed to pay me back, but I am missing out on opportunities that can't be replaced.
How does the atonement make any difference for:
1 - The victim,
2 - The criminal/sinner
~ Seeker
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| Re: Salvation and the Atonement [message #236 is a reply to message #234] |
Wed, 02 March 2011 12:02 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Given all the recent posts about this topic, I had an insight which comes from a rather unusual source. While watching the movie "Ghost Rider", a line was spoken which touched me in a way scripture had not done so on the subject. It is repeated multiple times, as it is the penitence stare of the Ghost Rider.
Quote:"Your soul is stained with the blood of the innocent. Feel their pain."
The Ghost Rider then proceeds to force the guilty to feel what they did to the innocent as if it were happening to them. My heart and mind finally aligned on the subject, and I now know that the ultimate punishment for our sins is to experience the pain we have caused others.
Imagine then, how people will feel when all our spiritual gifts are restored, including empathy. And, standing before God, acknowledging that His judgments are just, someone must endure that suffering. If we refuse to allow the atonement to provide mercy, then we are cursed to feel their pain, after which we enter into a kingdom of glory. But those who shed the blood of the innocent and utterly refuse the atonement, will feel that pain for eternity, as no finite amount of suffering will suffice. If I steal from someone, they could eventually get over the financial and emotional impact I cause. Thus, in the eternities I will be punished in that way before receiving my glory (probably Telestial). But when someone is murdered, with the intent to thwart the designs of God, that person cannot ever recover from their death. Thus, I can never stop feeling their pain if the atonement has no effect. When this happens, a person is damned to outer darkness where they cannot be consoled by the presence of the Holy Ghost, because they experience eternal torment from what they have done.
Now, can the atonement cover the sin of murder? Yes. There is a case in point which proves some measure of forgiveness is possible, even if full forgiveness was not given. King David committed murder so he could marry a woman he lusted after. God had given him many wives, and political power, wealth, respect, and many other blessings. But he fell to the temptation of lust and compounded it by killing the one man who stood in his way. The scriptures do not say whether King David had given in to his lusts before, but we all know the sin of adultery does not happen without some preparation towards that end. In the Psalms of David, we learn that God promised not to condemn him to outer darkness. Even while living under the law of Moses, he was not stoned for his crime, but allowed to live out his life. He made as much progress in repenting as he could, but was left with the inescapable conclusion that he could not be exalted, but would not be cast into outer darkness. What was his ultimate fate? Only he and God knows that. But the atonement did have some effect.
I await your comments before proceeding with more on this subject.
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: Salvation and the Atonement [message #245 is a reply to message #236] |
Tue, 08 March 2011 14:20 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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I never caught that when watching the Ghost rider movie, but I remember it now. It is odd that Hollywood figured it out, unknowingly...
Alma speaking to Corianton about his following the harlot said,
Quote:Alma 39: 5-6
Know ye not, my son, that these things are an bomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?
For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.
Interesting points here:
- Denying the Holy Ghost KNOWINGLY is the unpardonable sin.
- Murdering against the light and knowledge of God is forgivable, but not completely. "It is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness." (As if to say "A level of forgiveness.)
I think King David obtained "a forgiveness" but not all forgiveness.
~ Seeker
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| Re: Salvation and the Atonement [message #342 is a reply to message #245] |
Thu, 02 June 2011 15:22 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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I recently had an awful experience which gives me insight into the atonement that I wanted to share here.
To make the story short, We put 95% of everything we owned into a storage unit. The unit manager was to automatically pull money out of our account which worked for a while then stopped.
They never called either of our working phone numbers on our account. We visited the unit and found our gate codes didn't work. They told us everything was fine and sent someone out to open the gate for us and gave us a new working code. Then, unknown to us they auctioned off the unit for lack of payment. We didn't find out until we were reviewing our bank statements over the weekend and realized that there was no payment pulled from our storage unit.
When we called them on the following Monday, and was told that everything in our unit has been sold at auction.
We had 95% of everything we owned in the unit and lost everything including the irreplaceable but most valuable items such as journals (important dates, blessings, development milestones etc. for us and our children, my mission, love letters to each other, our history, and details about how we met/fell in love), ALL wedding photos, wedding albums and videos, (ALL infant videos up to age 2) Wife's Wedding dress, Honey moon pictures, family and child pictures, baby pictures, home movies, our spiritual writings and records of various special personal events, family heirlooms and antiques, sentimental gifts and memorable items, antique out of print books we spent years trying to find, Personal blessing records, etc. etc. We have also remembered over $40k replaceable items.
We were able to contact the buyer who told us that everything that could be sold was and everything else, (our most valuable possessions), were thrown away.
The hard part to deal with is that our phone logs detail all calls to and from our cell phones which show that we never received a call from that area code except for when we were unable to use our old gate codes. If they had called us during that time or refused to let us into our unit, we could have quickly rectified any outstanding balance and resolved any issues. They were either incompetent or intentionally preventing us from correcting the issue.
We have been devastated beyond comprehension. I could not have comprehended the feeling of loss if I have not experienced it myself. I couldn't work for 3 days all of which my wife and I spent bawling until I was so horse I could hardly talk.
Even if we sued them and could recover a million dollars in damages they could not give us back our journals, pictures and most valuable items. There is nothing they could do to fix or correct the most harmful and irreparable damage they caused to us.
It also occurs to me that if they repented and tried to get Christ to "pay for their sins for them" or "cover their debt" as is the common belief regarding how the atonement works, there is no way that Christ could repair the damages they caused to us.
No amount of suffering on their part or by Christ will give us or our posterity those valuable items back. Christ has no power to repay their debt or repair the damage they caused us without restoring those items to us in mortality while they are still of us to us.
Their only hope is that they make every effort to correct the damage they caused us and that we forgive the remainder based on the power of the atonement an impact of Christ's teachings and love in our own lives. If we don't forgive them then we will continue to stand as witnesses against them until they come to know for themselves the pain and suffering they caused us and ask for our forgiveness.
~ Seeker
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| Re: Salvation and the Atonement [message #343 is a reply to message #342] |
Thu, 02 June 2011 18:05 |
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Dragon
Messages: 499
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
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Senior Member |
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Time and reflection often provide further insight into the most complicated of issues. One such topic is the Atonement. I have come to see that in the laws of man, the law sets the maximum penalty allowed for violating a certain rule. The jury decides which crimes the accused are guilty of. The judge decides how much penalty is warranted, somewhere between the minimum and the maximum. If the victim of the crime is present, and willing to speak, the judge can take into account their wishes. If they have forgiven the person, or feel the crime they are found guilty of exceeds the offense committed against them, they can recommend mercy be extended. The jury cannot give mercy. The judge can deny mercy if he chooses. It is only the victim which can grant mercy in our legal system today.
So it is with God. Jesus is both our Judge, Advocate, and victim. If we beg Him for mercy, He can grant it, if we meet His requirements. He earned this right because of His suffering in the Garden and on the cross. No person has ever suffered as much as He did. No victim has ever been so thoroughly tortured. As such, Jesus is the perfect person to decide whether mercy is appropriate in deciding a person's fate.
- Dragon
- Dragon
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| Re: Salvation and the Atonement [message #450 is a reply to message #342] |
Sat, 02 June 2012 15:29 |
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JulesGP
Messages: 357
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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Senior Member |
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Seeker wrote on Thu, 02 June 2011 15:22I recently had an awful experience which gives me insight into the atonement that I wanted to share here.
To make the story short, We put 95% of everything we owned into a storage unit. The unit manager was to automatically pull money out of our account which worked for a while then stopped.
They never called either of our working phone numbers on our account. We visited the unit and found our gate codes didn't work. They told us everything was fine and sent someone out to open the gate for us and gave us a new working code. Then, unknown to us they auctioned off the unit for lack of payment. We didn't find out until we were reviewing our bank statements over the weekend and realized that there was no payment pulled from our storage unit.
When we called them on the following Monday, and was told that everything in our unit has been sold at auction.
We had 95% of everything we owned in the unit and lost everything including the irreplaceable but most valuable items such as journals (important dates, blessings, development milestones etc. for us and our children, my mission, love letters to each other, our history, and details about how we met/fell in love), ALL wedding photos, wedding albums and videos, (ALL infant videos up to age 2) Wife's Wedding dress, Honey moon pictures, family and child pictures, baby pictures, home movies, our spiritual writings and records of various special personal events, family heirlooms and antiques, sentimental gifts and memorable items, antique out of print books we spent years trying to find, Personal blessing records, etc. etc. We have also remembered over $40k replaceable items.
We were able to contact the buyer who told us that everything that could be sold was and everything else, (our most valuable possessions), were thrown away.
The hard part to deal with is that our phone logs detail all calls to and from our cell phones which show that we never received a call from that area code except for when we were unable to use our old gate codes. If they had called us during that time or refused to let us into our unit, we could have quickly rectified any outstanding balance and resolved any issues. They were either incompetent or intentionally preventing us from correcting the issue.
We have been devastated beyond comprehension. I could not have comprehended the feeling of loss if I have not experienced it myself. I couldn't work for 3 days all of which my wife and I spent bawling until I was so horse I could hardly talk.
Even if we sued them and could recover a million dollars in damages they could not give us back our journals, pictures and most valuable items. There is nothing they could do to fix or correct the most harmful and irreparable damage they caused to us.
It also occurs to me that if they repented and tried to get Christ to "pay for their sins for them" or "cover their debt" as is the common belief regarding how the atonement works, there is no way that Christ could repair the damages they caused to us.
No amount of suffering on their part or by Christ will give us or our posterity those valuable items back. Christ has no power to repay their debt or repair the damage they caused us without restoring those items to us in mortality while they are still of us to us.
Their only hope is that they make every effort to correct the damage they caused us and that we forgive the remainder based on the power of the atonement an impact of Christ's teachings and love in our own lives. If we don't forgive them then we will continue to stand as witnesses against them until they come to know for themselves the pain and suffering they caused us and ask for our forgiveness.
Seeker, your post reminded me of this story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zwQ_7q-fU
(Sorry I don't know how to embed videos yet)
This man's family can't be brought back but his torment could have been worsened if he had dealt with it differently and chosen not to forgive. It reminds me that we are commanded to do the things we are - such as forgive, for our own benefit. But even though the boy can be forgiven, even the Atonement can't restore the loss and pain this man suffered. But maybe it's set up that way to see if we are willing to forgive, even when pain is inflicted upon us as a result of someone's neglect or unrighteousness. And to see if we take the opportunity to receive the blessings as a result (like this man has), when we DO make that choice.
~Jules
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| Re: Salvation and the Atonement [message #462 is a reply to message #452] |
Wed, 06 June 2012 15:01 |
Seeker
Messages: 244
Registered: June 2010
Location: Las Vegas
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Senior Member |
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Thanks all for your thoughts and sympathies. We are rebuilding and replacing as well as rewriting some of our stories and most precious experiences.
Ashleyd wrote on Sat, 02 June 2012 20:55One thing I decided to do was start an online journal on ldsjournal.com. What a great idea. I had not heard of this before. I will look into it.
~ Seeker
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As sentimental as I am that would be a VERY difficult trial for me so I can only imagine how hard it has been. But thanks for sharing that story with us. I pray that your family will receive comfort over this matter. One thing I decided to do was start an online journal on ldsjournal.com. Its great because you can back everything up and you can print it out for free or pay a fee and have your entries made into a book. I wrote out my patriarchal blessing and backed it up on several files and well as copying it down in my journal to have a few different options in case for some reason the church lost it. Those are just some options that may help in the future so you can feel a bit more secure about those things. Again, I am so sorry. 
