Elliaison.org - Forum
Elliaison.org forum is a free discussion group focused on the persuit of truth and spiritual knowledge from every source.

Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » LDS Deep Doctrine » The Possibility of Reincarnation (Does Church Doctrine allow for the existence of Reincarnation?)
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1918 is a reply to message #1908] Fri, 11 January 2013 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
Messages: 487
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
Senior Member
RDWhitaker,
It is clear you have already decided not to believe in reincarnation no matter what I say. However, For the sake of others, I feel I must clarify. If a child is born in the covenant to faithful parents, and dies before the age of accountability, Church Doctrine states they will receive exaltation. Thus there would be no need to be reborn, but would in fact be returned to that family in the Millennium in the form they died.

What I am saying if if there is a person who leaves this life worthy of any glory short of the highest degree of glory, God may be willing to give them another chance. This does not annul, negate, or diminish the power of the atonement. You refer to life as a test of memory. But that is not the kind of test we are taking. We are working to change our very nature, as I have stated before. If you are a father, you should know beings come into this life with their own personality. This is a way of saying their nature is imprinted on the body, and they work to improve their nature during their whole life. If a person's nature is improved when they leave this life, but not enough for exaltation, would they not enter their next life with an improved nature? That is, assuming they get one.

I can only say this so many ways. If my previous posts have not given you enough to consider, ask a new question.


- Dragon
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1993 is a reply to message #259] Wed, 16 January 2013 06:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Called to Serve is currently offline  Called to Serve
Messages: 39
Registered: December 2012
Member
I am certain of the validity of this doctrine because the Spirit testified of it to me. I also believe that it does, in fact, include multiple mortal probations on this earth. I don't know how to interpret scriptures that seem to say otherwise. I've left that all to God to explain to me when He sees fit.

I have developed a theory, which I will admit is purely opinion, as I've pondered the implications of this doctrine and also certain quotes that I have read that have been impressed upon my mind. The quotes in question refer to the idea that we are gods. There are prophets and others who have specifically stated that we are gods. They say this in this way, not in that we can become gods. And so, taking that into consideration with the idea that time for Heavenly Father in the eternities is all inclusive, I have wondered if in fact, all of us are truly gods, and have been and always will be, just as our Father has always been God and always will be.

I am speaking of the idea of a cycle in which we go through the same eternal round again and again. Where we go from being powerful beings like our Father to infants of spirituality again and again. We go through this process for the same reason we sleep, wake, eat, play, and work in cycles every day. It is food for our beings and we would die if we stopped the cycle for any significant amount of time.

It seems to me that either we are eternal or we are not. We are gods or we are not. How can we progress from being one type of being to another throughout "eternity" where time is all inclusive? We must be what we are or not.

That is the idea that has come to me as I've pondered this doctrine and related ideas. I do not think life, eternal or mortal, is anything like we assume as we live out our "time" here on earth in a linear fashion. I think our Father in Heaven sees it all from a much higher perspective and our understanding is as that of little children who come up with the most ridiculous ideas sometimes as they try to make sense of the world and of the things they are being told.


Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #1994 is a reply to message #259] Wed, 16 January 2013 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rdwhitaker is currently offline  rdwhitaker
Messages: 114
Registered: December 2012
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Senior Member
I purchased the book "The Doctrine of Eternal Lives" and started reading it. The more I read, the more it became apparent to me that it was trying to insinuate false doctrine. It committed the same errors we preach against many other churches for doing - wresting the scriptures to try to make them say something they do not. The scriptures say "The Father and I are one." Many churches use that as proof positive that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one being. The scriptures say "God is spirit". They say that is proof positive that God does not have a corporeal body. I see the author of this book doing exactly the same thing. Just because a quote 'could' mean something doesn't mean it actually does. In many instances the reader has to make some real stretches to fit the quote into the meaning the author intends us to grasp. Too far in my opinion. I ended up throwing the book away. It left too dark an impression on my mind.

I found a book review by someone on latterdaycommentary.com that I liked. http://latterdaycommentary.com/2012/06/24/the-doctrine-of-eternal-lives/ One part from it says,

"A Dangerous and Damning Belief

"Why is a belief in reincarnation so dangerous? To believe in reincarnation is to take away the focus and incentive we should have to make every moment of this life count in preparation for our continued schooling in the life to come. If one believes they will be given another chance then there is no real desire to do one's best. Why knock yourself out if you can do it over again?

"We are born once, we die once (Heb 9:27) and we are resurrected once to die no more (Alma 11:45 & 12:18). That's the doctrine of the church as taught by the Lord through the prophet Joseph Smith in scripture that we as a church have accepted as binding. Anything other than that is dangerous and damning because it prevents us from progressing in this life as we should.

"In the words of Bruce R McConkie, reincarnation "is a false doctrine originating with the devil. It runs counter to the whole system and plan of salvation whereunder spirits are born in pre-existence, are permitted to pass through a mortal probation, and then in due course become immortal, incorruptible, and eternal in nature." As a church, we do not believe in reincarnation."

Ryan


Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!

[Updated on: Wed, 16 January 2013 09:31]

Report message to a moderator

Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #2009 is a reply to message #1908] Wed, 16 January 2013 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zephyr is currently offline  zephyr
Messages: 129
Registered: May 2012
Senior Member
I agree with Ryan.
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #2103 is a reply to message #259] Sun, 27 January 2013 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Called to Serve is currently offline  Called to Serve
Messages: 39
Registered: December 2012
Member
I'd like to explain why I believe that it would not be an easy thing to simply do life over again and again. Even though you would get to try again to obtain salvation, you would lose everything you have in THIS life. What would you lose that is of so great importance? YOUR FAMILY.

Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #2107 is a reply to message #2103] Mon, 28 January 2013 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
Messages: 487
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
Senior Member
I think you have missed one very important fact. The one fact which would inspire someone to go through the pain and risk of trying again at life. If you are not a Celestial Being, you have no family. No wife, no kids, no parents. Those sealings are only reserved for the Celestial Kingdom. If the sealings are not ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise, they are void. One requirement for this is that all people involved in the sealing maintained a Celestial relationship with each other.

King David was sealed to many wives and possibly to many concubines as well. Did he violate those covenants when he slept with Uriah's wife? Or was it when he had Uriah killed? Can anyone think King David had a Celestial Relationship with all his wives after that whole incident?


- Dragon
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #2240 is a reply to message #259] Mon, 25 February 2013 21:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kingdom of ZION is currently offline  Kingdom of ZION
Messages: 46
Registered: November 2012
Location: Colorado
Member
No one ever said that you can just do it over and over again. Second Estate Beings get one life (birth). IF they prove well here, then they get to go on to the Third Estate (Millennial) world. IF they prove well there then they get to become one of the be Just Men made perfect or Holy Ghosts. They then come down into worlds like this world, working on their perfection and missions for the Father. IF they do not commit the unpardonable sin, then they will one day become a Messiah of a world. They can fall at any point along the path, and their is no do over! Still, is this doctrine for the Gentiles or their church? NO!

Those who have had it revealed unto them... it is for you to know and embrace. Everyone else... it is not for them!


Coming of Eliyah is yet future, the Restoration of Yesrael and the Kingdom or Gospel and the other 2/3's of the Book of Mormon will follow. If Eliyah does not come, then with the coming of the Messiah, the earth shall be cursed and utterly wasted!
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #2242 is a reply to message #2240] Tue, 26 February 2013 07:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
Messages: 487
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
Senior Member
Very bold statements, but they offer nothing new to the conversation. I was aware before posting this many people reject the concept of reincarnation. You also assume this is only the second life or second estate. A better interpretation would be to call them the Previous Estate, The Current Estate, and the Next Estate.
I believe reincarnation is the exception, not the rule. To think I am proposing a person can return an infinite number of times, or that it is an easy decision to return to this estate is to deny the profound effect mortal life has on beings of spirit. Why is it so impossible to think a person may improve their nature without completing the goal of exaltation, and then return to another mortal life to continue this improvement? Most who improve their nature in this life achieve exaltation without needing a second mortal experience. Others do not improve their nature in this life and receive their reward. Only a few improve themselves and still need another lifetime to complete the process. There are plenty of gospel questions for which reincarnation gives a logical answer. Furthermore, the Spirit has manifested the truthfulness of it to me through multiple matters, and at multiple levels.

KoZ
Those who have had it revealed unto them... it is for you to know and embrace. Everyone else... it is not for them!

This statement could be made about any matter in which you disagree with someone else. The implication is that anyone who disagrees with your argument, simply hasn't come to understand your point of view. I understand your point of view, and I disagree with it and refute it.


- Dragon
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #2243 is a reply to message #385] Tue, 26 February 2013 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
Messages: 354
Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
Senior Member

JulesGP wrote on Sat, 26 May 2012 01:20
http://www.greaterthings.com/JJDewey/Eternal_Lives/

This man makes a good case for reincarnation/multiple mortal probations in this article - all backed by LDS scripture and quotes from church leaders. It's a long read, but VERY informative and although there's a lot of his own conjecture, it's sourced pretty well and his conclusions rang true to me.

I am also reading the Amalgamated King Follett Discourse given by Joseph Smith, and he discusses some pretty interesting related things there.

One thing I want to add that was not mentioned in the article above - the church teaches that those who have lost their children to death before the age of accountability will have the opportunity to raise them to adulthood during the millennium. Is this not essentially reincarnation?

I'd like to read the book "Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives" ( http://www.amazon.com/Teachings-Doctrine-Eternal-Lives-Anony mous/dp/1934537969). The entire book is simply quotes about the topic by LDS leaders, and scripture quotes.


I just want to add to my own comments here and say that although I have found truths in studying the doctrine of eternal lives, I have not developed a firm conclusion or complete understanding. I know there is much more to understand and I am still studying. Although I think that the complete truth may contain elements of everyone's posts here, I am not convinced that anyone in this thread has expressed the complete truth as it IS. That's just my humble opinion. Smile

SO, I'll keep learning as the spirit directs!


~Jules
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3365 is a reply to message #412] Tue, 02 September 2014 21:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gregory Quinton Young is currently offline  Gregory Quinton Young
Messages: 2
Registered: September 2014
Location: New Zealand
Junior Member
Would a possibility of reincarnation not then remove the need for a Saviour? Do I need multiple life attempts to get it right or can the Saviour make up the difference of my short comings?

"When we have done all that we are able, we can rely on God's promised mercy. We have a Savior, who has taken upon him not just the sins, but also "the pains and the sicknesses of his people ... that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities" (Alma 7:1112). He is our Savior, and when we have done all that we can, he will make up the difference, in his own way and in his own time. Of that I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen." Dallin H Oaks

12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. Alma 7:12 Perhaps this succoring is making up our differences?

Also if reincarnation What body of the multiples I have had do I get to have resurrected? And how confusing will it be to all those who have known me and now I look so different?

Just my thoughts.
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3366 is a reply to message #442] Wed, 03 September 2014 02:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gregory Quinton Young is currently offline  Gregory Quinton Young
Messages: 2
Registered: September 2014
Location: New Zealand
Junior Member
Dragon

Perhaps yes certain intelligences only ever wanted to be a tree or a fish and so chose to be that and so that is what they will be for eternity. Perhaps however animals and plants and insects get moved from one world to another once they die to eternally live out their choice of what they chose to be. We are taught that once resurrected we will not want to live in the celestial kingdom if we don't deserve to be there, so we will in effect judge ourselves to our appropriate kingdom. It will be our choice and so perhaps it is with intelligences their choice as to what creation they want to be.

Greg
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3367 is a reply to message #3365] Mon, 06 October 2014 04:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
Messages: 487
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
Senior Member
Quote:
Would a possibility of reincarnation not then remove the need for a Saviour?


The answer to this question is to say that without the atonement, progress of any kind becomes impossible.

Quote:
Do I need multiple life attempts to get it right or can the Saviour make up the difference of my short comings?


This life is the time for you to prepare to meet God. Every soul born on this Earth has the potential, in a single human lifetime, to achieve exaltation. It can be accomplished in a single lifetime, that is clear to me. I believe reincarnation is the exception, and not the rule. I do not know that for certain. It may be that everyone on this earth today has been here several times. It may be that less than 2% of the Earth's current population lived previous lives. The atonement can cover most sins. The sins of King David were not forgiven in his lifetime. He lost his exaltation, and the kingdom was divided. Is it possible he will be reincarnated and regain his exaltation?



- Dragon
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3402 is a reply to message #3367] Tue, 09 December 2014 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brrgilbert is currently offline  brrgilbert
Messages: 106
Registered: December 2012
Location: Nampa, Idaho
Senior Member

Dragon wrote on Mon, 06 October 2014 04:59
Quote:
Would a possibility of reincarnation not then remove the need for a Saviour?


The answer to this question is to say that without the atonement, progress of any kind becomes impossible.

Quote:
Do I need multiple life attempts to get it right or can the Saviour make up the difference of my short comings?


This life is the time for you to prepare to meet God. Every soul born on this Earth has the potential, in a single human lifetime, to achieve exaltation. It can be accomplished in a single lifetime, that is clear to me. I believe reincarnation is the exception, and not the rule. I do not know that for certain. It may be that everyone on this earth today has been here several times. It may be that less than 2% of the Earth's current population lived previous lives. The atonement can cover most sins. The sins of King David were not forgiven in his lifetime. He lost his exaltation, and the kingdom was divided. Is it possible he will be reincarnated and regain his exaltation?

We live in the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. This dispensation precedes that of the End of Times. Our dispensation is that of the "Restoration" of all things as from the beginning. We have witnessed it with reference to polygamy, priesthood, temples . . . David's soul will not remain in hell. He will not remain a "ghost."




"I must endure the presence of two or three caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."

The Little Prince by St. Exupery
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3436 is a reply to message #259] Wed, 22 April 2015 00:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elejian is currently offline  Elejian
Messages: 34
Registered: June 2013
Location: United States
Member
I've been studying this topic for the past year. As a result, I just finished compiling a book about it. It's over 70,000 words, so there's no room to explain everything here. I especially learned a lot from (1) the Book of Mormon (for example, I believe that Alma 12:27 is an enhancement of Hebrews 9:27) and (2) the New Testament Greek.

For a quick answer, it is clear that multiple mortal probations are at least possible: Assuming Lazarus and other people who were raised from the dead in the scriptures were (1) truly dead, and (2) are not currently mortally alive, then those people have had at least 2 mortal probations.

Although some may argue that those are special cases, they do show the possibility, nonetheless.
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3437 is a reply to message #3436] Wed, 22 April 2015 21:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
Messages: 487
Registered: June 2010
Location: Earth
Senior Member
Interesting. Where and how are you getting your book published? I must admit I'm intrigued.

- Dragon
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3438 is a reply to message #3437] Sun, 26 April 2015 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elejian is currently offline  Elejian
Messages: 34
Registered: June 2013
Location: United States
Member
I don't want to appear self-serving or self-promoting by posting a link to the book here, so I'll send you a private message.

Here's an interesting scripture: "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham" (Matthew 3:9; see also JST Matthew 3:36, Luke 3:8).
Re: The Possibility of Reincarnation [message #3560 is a reply to message #3438] Thu, 22 December 2016 23:12 Go to previous message
booasa is currently offline  booasa
Messages: 1
Registered: December 2012
Junior Member
I think if you look solely to the scriptures and Joseph's teaching you will not go astray. Look at D and C 88:15 and see what the definition of a souls is. Then look at Abraham 3:22,23 and note that Abraham was a soul before the foundation of the world. Note Alma 13:3 and note that God choose his leaders based upon their exceeding great faith. Can we develope exceeding great faith while we are in the presence of the Father in the Spirit World . If not we must leave his presence ,gain a body and renter his presence as apparently Abraham did and THEN be chosen to be a ruler in mortality or a new world created by the Father. Read the King Follet discourse and particularly the Srmon in the Grove ( Joseph's last) and see we must climb the ladder one rung at a time and go from exaltation to exaltation before we can lay hold onto the resurrection of the dead as the Savior did and as his father did and as his father did before him. Jesus reached rhe point where he laid down his life - no man took it from him . After he had done everything his father had done he became perfect 3 Nephi 12:48. The answer is right there in the scriptures and Joseph's teachings and requires no mystical speculation
Previous Topic: The Adam God Theory
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat Jun 24 05:59:17 MDT 2017

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.91790 seconds