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Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #1904 is a reply to message #1902] Thu, 10 January 2013 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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brrgilbert wrote on Thu, 10 January 2013 15:46
(Exodus 20:3-6.)


3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


(Exodus 34:14.)


14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:


(Deuteronomy 4:24.)


24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.


(Nahum 1:2.)


2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.


(Mosiah 11:22-23.)


22 And it shall come to pass that they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of my people.
23 And it shall come to pass that except this people repent and turn unto the Lord their God, they shall be brought into bondage; and none shall deliver them, except it be the Lord the Almighty God.


jeal·ous
[jel-uh s] Show IPA
adjective
1.
feeling resentment against someone because of that person's rivalry, success, or advantages (often followed by of ): He was jealous of his rich brother.
2.
feeling resentment because of another's success, advantage, etc. (often followed by of ): He was jealous of his brother's wealth.
3.
characterized by or proceeding from suspicious fears or envious resentment: a jealous rage; jealous intrigues.
4.
inclined to or troubled by suspicions or fears of rivalry, unfaithfulness, etc., as in love or aims: a jealous husband.
5.
solicitous or vigilant in maintaining or guarding something: The American people are jealous of their freedom.
6.
Bible. intolerant of unfaithfulness or rivalry: The Lord is a jealous God.




~Jules
Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #1906 is a reply to message #88] Fri, 11 January 2013 06:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brrgilbert is currently offline  brrgilbert
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(JST Luke 15:11.)


11 And he said, A certain man had two sons;
luke 15:1212 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods which falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
luke 15:1313 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
luke 15:1414 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land and he began to be in want.
luke 15:1515 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
luke 15:1616 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks which the swine did eat; and no man gave unto him.
luke 15:1717 And when he came to himself he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
luke 15:1818 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee;
luke 15:1919 And am no more worthy to be called thy son; make me as one of thy hired servants.
luke 15:2020 And he arose and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
luke 15:2121 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
luke 15:2222 But the father said unto his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his finger, and shoes on his feet;
luke 15:2323 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat and be merry;
luke 15:2424 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
luke 15:2525 Now his elder son was in the field; and as he came, and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.
luke 15:2626 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant?
luke 15:2727 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because hath he received him safe and sound.
luke 15:2828 And he was angry, and would not go in; therefore came his father out and entreated him.
luke 15:2929 And he answering, said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment; and thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends;
luke 15:3030 But as soon as this thy son was come, who hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
luke 15:3131 And he said unto him, Son thou art ever with me; and all that I have is thine.
luke 15:3232 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad; for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; was lost, and is found.

After a careful review of this parable, I concur that this cannot apply to the Savior or to Lucifer. It is a parable about forgiveness. It reminds me of the statement, I believe was made by Harold B. Lee: "Man seems to always put a question mark where God intended a period." I concede; therefore, that this cannot and should not be applied in the manner previously cited. My apologies and retraction, Bruce G. Embarrassed I am a wiser man. Thank you for your patience.


"I must endure the presence of two or three caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."

The Little Prince by St. Exupery

[Updated on: Fri, 11 January 2013 06:23]

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Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #1907 is a reply to message #1906] Fri, 11 January 2013 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Denryu is currently offline  Denryu
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LOL, there is no reason to apologize or to be embarrassed. We are all here to learn, and we have so much to teach each other.

What I find embarrassing is when someone (usually me!) stubbornly defends their position when they are clearly incorrect, but do so because of ego and pride. The only day to be ashamed of is the day that you didn;t learn or grow in some way (again, one I am most guilty of.)

Kevin


Libertas optimas rarem, nunquam servili sub nexu.
"There is no gift like Liberty, therefore never live under slavery."
Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #1947 is a reply to message #88] Sun, 13 January 2013 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rdwhitaker is currently offline  rdwhitaker
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Being a late comer here, there is much on this forum to catch up with, and I am slowly getting around to it. I have enjoyed reading this thread.

A big red flag was raised for me, however, when I read the suggestion we should love Satan. I understand the reason behind this (love your enemy) but this is a very dangerous course to follow. Satan is waiting for every opportunity to twist and turn our thoughts, words and actions against our proper progress. Someone who tries to love Satan could very, very easily be turned away from their path of eternal progression. I view the word "enemy" as in "love your enemy," as referring to mortals. When it comes to Satan, I feel the best course is to avoid him and not tempt him to take advantage of our well meaning attitude. There are those who want to pity Satan, to have compassion on him, who think he has been given a bum rap just for fulfilling his assigned, eternal role. This is dangerous. The best course for us to follow during mortality is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, might, mind, and soul. This does not leave much room for loving Satan. There may come a time when we have progressed enough that it may be given us to feel something other than enmity for Satan, but I doubt that time will occur during any of our mortal probation.

Ryan


Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!
Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #1948 is a reply to message #1947] Sun, 13 January 2013 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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Registered: May 2012
Location: Davis County, UT
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rdwhitaker wrote on Sun, 13 January 2013 11:55
Being a late comer here, there is much on this forum to catch up with, and I am slowly getting around to it. I have enjoyed reading this thread.

A big red flag was raised for me, however, when I read the suggestion we should love Satan. I understand the reason behind this (love your enemy) but this is a very dangerous course to follow. Satan is waiting for every opportunity to twist and turn our thoughts, words and actions against our proper progress. Someone who tries to love Satan could very, very easily be turned away from their path of eternal progression. I view the word "enemy" as in "love your enemy," as referring to mortals. When it comes to Satan, I feel the best course is to avoid him and not tempt him to take advantage of our well meaning attitude. There are those who want to pity Satan, to have compassion on him, who think he has been given a bum rap just for fulfilling his assigned, eternal role. This is dangerous. The best course for us to follow during mortality is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, might, mind, and soul. This does not leave much room for loving Satan. There may come a time when we have progressed enough that it may be given us to feel something other than enmity for Satan, but I doubt that time will occur during any of our mortal probation.

Ryan


Ryan I see what you are saying and I've struggled with this too. (Replace Satan with "ex-husband....). Although I am struggling with the actual application, I can see that we SHOULD learn to love all - including Satan. I believe as his Father, Heavenly Father must also have love for his rebellious son Satan. I cannot imagine NOT loving my sons - no matter how far they fell - even unto Perdition. I know that at one time, I did love my ex-husband and because of his continued actions toward my son and me, I have lost that. I understand that I'm supposed to despise the sin and still have love for the sinner, but I haven't figured out HOW yet. And regarding Satan, I know that I should not allow hate into my heart - even for Satan - as he is the one who fosters such feelings. But understanding how to actually love the entity that creates such evil and encourages my ex-husband to do the things he does is difficult for me to fathom. But as I said - despite my lack of understanding at this time, I know it is true.

Quote:
Luke 6:27

27 ¶But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,


Quote:
3 Nephi 12:44

44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;



Quote:
Matthew 5:44

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;



Quote:
Alma 26:32

32 For behold, they had rather sacrifice their lives than even to take the life of their enemy; and they have buried their weapons of war deep in the earth, because of their love towards their brethren.



Quote:
Luke 6:35

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.


Again.... I am still learning.... Confused



~Jules
Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #2060 is a reply to message #88] Tue, 22 January 2013 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rdwhitaker is currently offline  rdwhitaker
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My wife and I were discussing the use of the word 'enmity' as used between the seed of the woman and Satan.

We were wondering how Christ could hate even Lucifer, when Christ is the epitome of pure love? One answer came from looking up the word 'enmity' and discovering it has another meaning the fits the scripture very well.

Enmity also means "opposition." Christ certainly opposed Satan's designs and Satan opposes Christ's purposes. So I can feel comfortable with the thought that Christ does not feel loathing, despising, or hatred in His pure heart. But He certainly knows His role to provide the standard of Love and Purity, Faithfulness and Devotion, Obedience and Divine Submission, that Satan exists to oppose.

I like that meaning of the word 'enmity' -- opposition.

Ryan


Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!
Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #2071 is a reply to message #88] Wed, 23 January 2013 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FreddyV is currently offline  FreddyV
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Quote:
. 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him--he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning! Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76)


The heavens wept over him. They cried, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

I had a powerful experience reading this not long ago. We wept because we knew him. I have seen him, so I can say with certainty that we definitely knew him. He was very familiar to me. I can also say that we wept because he rejected the Father. Would we not also weep if one of our own family members openly rejected our Father? There is no hatred, but a sense of loss and mourning.
Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #2075 is a reply to message #1947] Wed, 23 January 2013 20:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brrgilbert is currently offline  brrgilbert
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rdwhitaker wrote on Sun, 13 January 2013 11:55
Being a late comer here, there is much on this forum to catch up with, and I am slowly getting around to it. I have enjoyed reading this thread.

A big red flag was raised for me, however, when I read the suggestion we should love Satan. I understand the reason behind this (love your enemy) but this is a very dangerous course to follow. Satan is waiting for every opportunity to twist and turn our thoughts, words and actions against our proper progress. Someone who tries to love Satan could very, very easily be turned away from their path of eternal progression. I view the word "enemy" as in "love your enemy," as referring to mortals. When it comes to Satan, I feel the best course is to avoid him and not tempt him to take advantage of our well meaning attitude. There are those who want to pity Satan, to have compassion on him, who think he has been given a bum rap just for fulfilling his assigned, eternal role. This is dangerous. The best course for us to follow during mortality is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, might, mind, and soul. This does not leave much room for loving Satan. There may come a time when we have progressed enough that it may be given us to feel something other than enmity for Satan, but I doubt that time will occur during any of our mortal probation.

Ryan


For me, the commandment and assertion to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, might, mind, and soul is one of quality and not necessarily quantity. Love appears to be one of those things that, like a flame, can kindle and ignite many other flames. Love begets love. It isn't like a box of Valentine chocolates, that once consumed is all gone; i.e. there is only so much to give. Love is quality and unlimited in quantity. To me, saying, "I love you with all of my heart," is a quality statement with unlimited quantity. I can say; therefore, to many . . . God, my wife, my children and others, "I love you with all of my heart!" and mean it without guile or constraint. It is an eternal flame.


"I must endure the presence of two or three caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."

The Little Prince by St. Exupery
Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #2078 is a reply to message #1036] Thu, 24 January 2013 11:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rdwhitaker is currently offline  rdwhitaker
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mormonhah wrote on Tue, 28 August 2012 17:35
After reading through all the posts that I was able on this forum, I find that words are not sufficient to explain how I am feeling.
. . .
I have not been able to put the thoughts of my heart into words and when I do write, it frequently isn't what I am feeling anyway.


You're in good company! Your frustration in writing sounds extremely similar to what Book of Mormon authors described.

Ryan


Don't . . . Quit . . . Trying!!
Re: By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them [message #2853 is a reply to message #88] Fri, 22 November 2013 21:02 Go to previous message
leejae is currently offline  leejae
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So I know the Amonhi/Dragon discussion above was like, forever ago, but I was thinking something while I read it, thinking of the words love and hate in this instance. I was recalling D&C 50, and the scriptures there on receiving Spirits. Ya'll surely know more about this than me, but I wondered if we might consider that idea along with the direction against "railing accusation," and other scriptures that speak against "reviling."

The idea of having two masters, if we're talking about God and Satan, seems to suggest that the two masters would not give compatible orders - any commands by one would be diametrically opposed to commands by the other. Which "spirit" do we choose to receive? Could "loving" the one indicate receiving him, and "hating" the other mean not allowing place for him, refusing to hearken to his words, turning from him? The mention of the prodigal son brought that to mind as well. If we're talking about receiving vs. turning from, we're not necessarily talking about basic emotions - as much as perhaps choices and actions.

I have heard it said that the problem with concerning ourselves too much with evil spirits is that we tend to think we can relate to them, and we can't (-DS). I think that loving God and in turn "hating" the other that desires to be master means that "summary dismissal" (-DS) and refusing to allow his deceptions to enter our hearts is the best course of action. That doesn't really need to have anything to do with the actual emotion of hatred entering our hearts, which emotion is, as in scripture denouncing reviling and railing accusation...the adversary's domain, and may cause us to be "overcome", or "seized therewith".

[Updated on: Fri, 22 November 2013 21:12]

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