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Home » Calling and Election Made Sure » How You Received Your Calling and Election Made Sure » scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made
scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #243] Sun, 06 March 2011 23:02 Go to next message
Primary Teacher is currently offline  Primary Teacher
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I would love to start compiling a list of scripture stories of calling and election experiences. Has someone already compiled a list of scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made?

~ a Primary Teacher
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #278 is a reply to message #243] Tue, 05 April 2011 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amonhi is currently offline  Amonhi
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A group promise to all who gathered together on that day:
Quote:
"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:

Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.

Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.

This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;

Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son--" - D&C 88:1-5

Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #297 is a reply to message #278] Wed, 20 April 2011 22:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Seeker is currently offline  Seeker
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Enos got his here:

Quote:
And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.

And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

And I, Enos, knew that God acould not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.
...
And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen. - Enos 1:4-6 & 27


~ Seeker
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #499 is a reply to message #297] Sun, 17 June 2012 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Primary Teacher is currently offline  Primary Teacher
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Isaiah got his here:
Chapter 16: The Second Book of Nephi

Meeting Christ:

Quote:
1 In the year that king Uzziah died, I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphim; each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.


Atonement Completed for him:

Quote:
5 Then said I: Wo is unto me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips; and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphim unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar;

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said: Lo, this has touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.


Church of the First Born Calling / Assignment Given:

Quote:
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said: Here am I; send me.

9 And he said: Go and tell this people--Hear ye indeed, but they understood not; and see ye indeed, but they perceived not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes--lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted and be healed.


Length of Calling:

Quote:
11 Then said I: Lord, how long? And he said: Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate;

12 And the Lord have removed men far away, for there shall be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

13 But yet there shall be a tenth, and they shall return, and shall be eaten, as a teil-tree, and as an oak whose substance is in them when they cast their leaves; so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.




~ a Primary Teacher
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #501 is a reply to message #297] Sun, 17 June 2012 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Primary Teacher is currently offline  Primary Teacher
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Meeting Christ:

Quote:
And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.


Atonement Completed for him:

Quote:
And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

And I, Enos, knew that God acould not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away. . . . thy faith hath made thee whole.


Church of the First Born Calling / Assignment Given:

Quote:
Now, it came to pass that when I had heard these words I began to feel a desire for the welfare of my brethren, the Nephites.... I prayed unto him with many long strugglings for my brethren, the Lamanites. ... I, Enos, went about among the people of Nephi, prophesying of things to come, and testifying of the things which I had heard and seen.


~ a Primary Teacher
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #537 is a reply to message #501] Sun, 24 June 2012 14:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bishop is currently offline  bishop
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One of the great messages/themes of the Book of Mormon is to challenge us to receive our CE and the Second Comforter and to testify that we CAN receive it. I know that CE and Second Comforter are not the same, but for the purpose of illustrating my point, please allow me to use them synonymously as they are so closely related and intertwined in the BoM.

Nephi received it at a very young age and so did his brother Jacob:
2 Nephi 11:" 2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.

3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words."

Enos, Jacob's son received it. It turns out that the book of Enos is a testimony of how a prophet's son received his CE, as witnessed by President Marion G, Romney in his talk, "The Light of Christ."

Alma the elder received his CE:
Mosiah 26: " 20 Thou art my servant; and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have eternal life; and thou shalt serve me and go forth in my name, and shalt gather together my sheep."

As a point of conjecture, I believe that Alma the younger received his CE when the angel appeared unto him the second time in Alma 8:15
" 15 Blessed art thou, Alma; therefore, lift up thy head and rejoice, for thou hast great cause to rejoice; for thou hast been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time which thou receivedst thy first message from him. Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you."

Likewise a conjecture that Nephi, the son of Helaman, received his CE when God gave him the sealing power in Helaman 10:5:
" 5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will."

Mormon saw the Savior when he was only fifteen:
Mormon 1: "15. And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus."

Of course, the classic story of the Brother of Jared when he receives the Second Comforter is found in Ether 3. I only include Moroni's summary of the incident:
"19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him."

Moroni goes on to prophecy concerning the day when the Book of Ether should be brought forth to us. I take this as a personal challenge from the Lord through Moroni, in the Book of Ether: Ether 4: 7-19. I will only quote Ether 4:7 to be as brief as possible:
" 7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are."

So we are to exercise faith and strive to receive the same revelations that the Brother of Jared received, which assuredly includes receiving the Second Comforter.

Emer, a Jaredite king saw the Savior in his day:
Ether 9: " 22 And after he had anointed Coriantum to reign in his stead he lived four years, and he saw peace in the land; yea, and he even saw the Son of Righteousness, and did rejoice and glory in his day; and he died in peace."

In Ether 12, Moroni testifies that many saw Christ before he came in the flesh:
" 19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad."

Moroni was one who practiced what he preached:
Ether 12: " 38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;"

So my point is that the Book of Mormon is all about how to receive one's CE and the Second Comforter. This is why the prophets and apostles today preach until they're blue in the face that we must study the scriptures-especially the Book of Mormon; because it will teach us how to come unto Christ [Second Comforter]. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the purpose of bringing all men unto Christ [receive the Second Comforter]. The temple endowment shows the steps we must take to penetrate the veil and enter into the presence of Christ [Second Comforter]. The biggest hurdle to receiving this blessing is our own unbelief [aka lack of faith]. So I join in with others to testify that we are "they" to whom the Book of Mormon was written and it admonishes us to exercise our faith to receive our CE and the Second Comforter so that we can dwell in his presence now and be prepared for his coming. Age and experience were not a factor in the lives of Nephi, Jacob, and Mormon. But faith was the determinant.


Bishop
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #542 is a reply to message #243] Sun, 24 June 2012 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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Well said

- Dragon
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #822 is a reply to message #243] Sun, 05 August 2012 00:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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I was just reading Luke Ch. 7 and it struck me that this woman who the Pharisees called a "sinner" (and who many think may have been a prostitute) - received the same words some receive when they are given the promise...

Quote:
36 ¶And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.

37 And, behold, a awoman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster bbox of ointment,

38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and aanointed them with the ointment.

39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred apence, and the other fifty.

42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly aforgave them both. bTell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are aforgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are aforgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that aforgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy afaith hath saved thee; go in bpeace.


Clearly the Pharisees don't deem her to be worthy of having her sins forgiven. How interesting that the Savior judged her differently than they felt was appropriate because of her public sins.

Another thought -- we can assume that the Spirit endorsed the Savior's words.

We know that there are different words said when one is given the promise, but at least a couple of notable figures we've discussed received it as they were told their sins had been forgiven. When Enos was given his promise, he was told:

Quote:
And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

And I, Enos, knew that God acould not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.


Isaiah was told as he received his:

Quote:
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said: Lo, this has touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.


So if this is the message she was given as well, was this the moment she was given her Calling & Election?


~Jules
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #824 is a reply to message #822] Sun, 05 August 2012 09:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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I was going to say no, but then I saw something else Jesus said to her. Thy faith hath saved thee. Go in peace.
So I would say it is possible. There is a lot more involved in the C&E than is shown here, but this could be the beginning of that process for her. The Savior may have visited her again and given her more instruction. Certainly she showed her penitence through her tears of sorrow, and she had faith. This is one of the few cases where someone came to the Savior to have their sins forgiven, without also having a physical malady which needed to be healed.


- Dragon
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #825 is a reply to message #824] Sun, 05 August 2012 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bishop is currently offline  bishop
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Jules, this is an interesting question concerning this woman. I agree with Dragon's take on this. One thing I have noticed that CEers do have is a clear conscience. They do not feel that they are constantly sinning and in need of constant repentance from evil sins. Instead, their form of repentance is to constantly try to learn and grow-a much more positive outlook on life. I believe there is too little info for us to determine whether or not this woman received her CE at that moment. And I must say that being forgiven of one's sins is something that takes place from time to time [hopefully often] with the average faithful member of the Church. When a person is touched by the Spirit, they are cleansed because the Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean habitation. When they are healed by a spiritual gift, they are cleansed from their sins. As a person learns to follow the Spirit more and more constantly, they are more and more often clean from sin. According to the setting, with her being a repentant big time sinner, it would seem logical that she had not developed that spirituality to a point of having the spirit as her constant companion and being ready for her calling and election to be made sure. She was unlike Enos, for example, who was the son of a prophet and was at such a spiritual level as to be able to hear the Spirit as he prayed all day.

Bishop
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #834 is a reply to message #243] Mon, 06 August 2012 06:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc
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Lehi received the fullness of the Son and of the Father:

1 Nephi 1

8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.

9 And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.


Joseph Smith and Sidney Ridgon did as well:

D&C 76

19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.

20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;

21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father


Let's not forget Stephen, who was stoned to death for this testimony:

Acts 7

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 August 2012 06:52]

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Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #836 is a reply to message #834] Mon, 06 August 2012 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kenh is currently offline  kenh
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I agree with Bishop. There is a difference between forgiveness of sins and cleansed of all sin. Forgiveness of sins is to be pardoned of the negative effects of sin, but if the sin is repeated then the original punishment returns. If one has been cleansed of all sin then the natural man has been driven out of the person and that person no longer desires to sin at all. They are spiritually begotten of Christ and therefore redeemed from the fall and will have their CE. They will be able to have the Second Comforter operating in their lives. This is having the temple blessings become reality in one's own life. This is what the scriptures are attempting to teach us that we can make ourselves available for these great and glorious blessings in this life. With Faith and sincere repentance followed by baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost we obtain forgiveness through the blood of Jesus Christ, our Redeemer. Pressing forward we gain further light and knowledge through revelations from the Holy Ghost working in our lives until we go through the temple and are promised to be cleansed of all sin. When we have proven to the Lord that we will obey His will emphatically, then He will, good to His word, cleanse us of all sin, we become born again, and are spiritually begotten sons or daughters unto Christ and have our CE and can then qualify for the Second Comforter in our lives. It is true the BoM preaches Christ and teaches us the need for Him in our lives and how to apply His Atonement and eventually come to know Him personally and become cleansed of all sin and have our CE and Second Comforter in this life and thus it contains the fullness of His Gospel. Smile
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #845 is a reply to message #825] Mon, 06 August 2012 23:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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I hope I don't derail this thread but after doing some more studying, I realized more information on the woman I posted about above. First of all though, I wanted to make the point that I believe it isn't up to anyone else to judge this woman's place with the Lord - as the Savior pointed out to the Pharisees. Her heart may be with Him, though her sins may be scarlet..... Also, there are a LOT of details left out of the scriptures (besides the fact that they've been butchered by the Counsel of Nicea, multiple translations, correlation, etc.), and likely there was more involved than this description - that was clearly being used to make a point.

There are a couple of things I wanted to point out briefly - the anointing for example, was more than just a random woman pouring oil on the Savior. It sounds an AWFUL LOT like the Second Anointing performed between a husband and wife, which includes the anointing ordinance performed in preparation for the death of the husband (which the Savior points out is the purpose of what she is doing). But I don't want to write about that too much here and derail the thread. I believe the identity of the woman might help clarify some things - it certainly did for me.

This same situation is written about in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I've included the four accounts below, and underlined some of the things that seemed pertinent to me - and showed that this was apparently Mary of Bethany, and not just a random woman as I said. She was someone close to the Savior - obviously had sinned, but obviously too, a follower and devoted to Him and His Gospel.

In Matthew 26:

Quote:
6 ¶Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,

7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious aointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.

8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this awaste?

9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.

10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath awrought a good work upon me.

11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it afor my burial.

13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.


In Mark 14:

Quote:
3 ¶And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.

4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this awaste of the ointment made?

5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.

6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.

7 For ye have the apoor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

8 She hath done what she could: ashe is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.

9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that ashe hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.


In Luke 7:

Quote:
6 ¶And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.

37 And, behold, a awoman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster bbox of ointment,

38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and aanointed them with the ointment.

39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred apence, and the other fifty.

42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly aforgave them both. bTell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are aforgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are aforgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that aforgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy afaith hath saved thee; go in bpeace.


In John 12:

Quote:
1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2 There they made him a supper; and aMartha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a athief, and had the bbag, and bare what was put therein.

7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: aagainst the day of my burying hath bshe kept this.

8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.


So to me, it's clear that this woman WAS devoted to the Savior and living righteously - despite her past sins and that this is probably another scriptural example of someone receiving their C&E.


~Jules

[Updated on: Tue, 07 August 2012 00:09]

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Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #846 is a reply to message #845] Tue, 07 August 2012 07:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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JulesGP,
I am having a very hard time getting a witness from the Spirit that these two incidents are one and the same. I know the harmony of the gospels in the Bible Dictionary declared these to be the same incident. However, I would like to point out the following discrepancies.

The woman who cries on the feet of Jesus does anoint them with ointment, but there is no mention of an alabaster box or the expense of the ointments.

The two incidents were used to demonstrate difference points of doctrine. I know more than one gospel lesson could be taught from the same incident, but none of the four mention both the cost of the ointment and the forgiveness of sins of the woman.

When Mary anoints His head and/or His feet (there is disagreement between the gospels on this point), the place is declared as Bethany, at the house of Simon the Leper, with Lazarus in attendance. Mary was a relative of his (I forget if he was her brother or cousin). So this would have been a family gathering (assuming Jesus was married to Mary). The other takes place in the house of a pharisee, a much more public gathering. Again, these could have been the same place, but that is stretching.

The 'sinner' seems to be more of a stranger to him by the way the pharisees react and the way Jesus addresses her. Mary, on the other hand, was already known to the Savior, and many argue was Jesus' wife. Would the wife of Jesus be known publicly as a sinner and seek forgiveness in public?

When I add up all these differences between the two tales, I find the only details which are the same are the wiping of his feet with hair and anointing the feet. It stretches logic and credibility to believe all the differences can be overlooked when there were three chances to get one of the details correct, yet none of them do. The following questions arise in my mind when considering these two incidents as truly one:
Was Simon the Leper a pharisee?
Was Mary publicly known as a sinner who would seek public forgiveness?
Did Mary first shed her tears upon the Savior and then wipe them off with her hair before anointing his feet with costly oil?


- Dragon
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #848 is a reply to message #243] Tue, 07 August 2012 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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This is what I'm seeing:

    • The city is given in Matthew, Mark and John as Bethany

    • In Matthew, and Mark, it states they are in Simon the Leper's house. Luke says it was Simon the Phairasee. John doesn't specify, but there is mention that Judas is Simon's son - which would likely be mentioned if it were relevant to that situation, not just a random mention.

    • Matthew, Mark and Luke describe an alabaster box (or flask as the TG clarifies), John does not specify what container holds the oil.

    • Matthew, Mark and John specify that the oil is costly or precious.

    • Mark and John specify that the oil was spikenard.

    • Matthew, Mark and John specify disagreement about the waste of the oil. Luke indicates too that there is disagreement of the waste based on the discussion he has with Simon as he questions the Savior.

    • Matthew, Mark and John indicate that there are disciples present, and this is implied in Luke as Simon calls the Savior "Master".

    • Luke and John both mention that the woman used her hair to wipe his feet.

    • Matthew and Mark indicate that the Savior's head was anointed. Luke and John indicate that his feet were anointed. But Luke also quotes the Savior mentioning that Simon did not anoint His head.

    • All four accounts show the Savior putting those present in their place for questioning the woman for anointing Him.

One thing I know from the MANY times I've been in courtrooms, is that every witness giving an account of the same story, will tell it very differently, and often leave out important details (that seem relevant to others). At the same time, they will remember things that were poignant to them, but irrelevant to others.

The account of the Savior's crucifixion is a great example of this. It shows four accounts by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John of the same event, but many of the details are left out of the different interpretations, and there are details that also do not match. For example, there was a sign on the cross above the Savior's head for all to read. All four of these apostles were reading the exact same sign, yet every account has a different variation of what exactly it said:

Quote:
"This Is Jesus the King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37)

Quote:
"The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26)

Quote:
"This Is the King of the Jews" (Luke 23:38)

Quote:
"Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews" (John 19:19)


Only two of the disciples even remembered to write about something as important as the Savior's prayer to the Father:

Quote:
"... Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? ... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

In order to see the clearest picture of what actually happened during events in the scriptures and other historical accounts, we have to look at an amalgamation of the different versions and at times, rely on the "gist" of the story.

So it does not dissuade me from believing that these are the same account of the same woman - and Luke happened to be the only one who noticed or remembered to write about the fact that the woman was offered forgiveness and was cleansed by the Savior. (Just like John was the only one who remembered or thought it important to write the name of the woman spoken of.)

My point is that aside from what the spirit has witnessed to me personally, I'm also seeing the same account given of this woman written from four points of view. If that's not the case, then considering some of the details that cross over and the spider-web of similarities among the four accounts, I'd say the other possibility is that this is three or four different accounts of three or four different women in very similar situations with the Savior, and I've misunderstood what the spirit was telling me.


~Jules

[Updated on: Tue, 07 August 2012 12:38]

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Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #878 is a reply to message #243] Thu, 09 August 2012 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taliesin is currently offline  Taliesin
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I'm taking this thread back to a previous track. Just want to put my two cents in.

Sariah had her calling and election made sure. Nephi was very clever when he coded it into his narrative.

1 Nephi 5

1) AND it came to pass that after we had come down into the wilderness unto our father, behold, he was filled with joy, and also my mother, Sariah, was exceedingly glad, for she truly had mourned because of us.

2) For she had supposed that we had perished in the wilderness; and she also had complained against my father, telling him that he was a visionary man; saying: Behold thou hast led us forth from the land of our inheritance, and my sons are no more, and we perish in the wilderness.

It seems that when they left Jerusalem, they left their daughters who were married to the sons of Ishmael. At this point Sariah had abandoned her daughters (and their children, her grandchildren) and believed that all of her sons were dead. She felt that she had lost all of her children and grandchildren. She had also given up a comfortable life with a nice home, plenty of money, and upper-class society to follow her husband to live the life of a nomad with no clear direction on how this thing would end. This was a major trial for her.

3) And after this manner of language had my mother complained against my father.

4) And it had come to pass that my father spake unto her, saying: I know that I am a visionary man; for if I had not seen the things of God in a vision I should not have known the goodness of God, but had tarried at Jerusalem, and had perished with my brethren.

5) But behold, I have obtained a land of promise, in the which things I do rejoice; yea, and I know that the Lord will deliver my sons out of the hands of Laban, and bring them down again unto us in the wilderness.

6) And after this manner of language did my father, Lehi, comfort my mother, Sariah, concerning us, while we journeyed in the wilderness up to the land of Jerusalem, to obtain the record of the Jews.

Lehi did a good job of teaching Sariah "the way". She got it and it didn't take her very long because it was while the sons were still on their way up to Jerusalem that she was "comforted" by Lehi.

7) And when we had returned to the tent of my father, behold their joy was full, and my mother was comforted.

Sariah is "comforted" again, but it wasn't Lehi who comforted her. Was she comforted when her sons walked in, or had she been comforted (the second time) before they got there? In addition, she and Lehi together had a "fullness of joy". Did Nephi return and walk into their tent and behold that they were already in a state of joy and comfort? His return was probably not have been the (entire) cause of their joy and comfort.

Cool And she spake, saying: Now I know of a surety that the Lord hath commanded my husband to flee into the wilderness; yea, and I also know of a surety that the Lord hath protected my sons, and delivered them out of the hands of Laban, and given them power whereby they could accomplish the thing which the Lord hath commanded them. And after this manner of language did she speak.

There are things that she "knows of a surety", which is a big deal.

9) And it came to pass that they did rejoice exceedingly, and did offer sacrifice and burnt offerings unto the Lord; and they gave thanks unto the God of Israel.

Here they rejoice exceedingly. This is different from verse 7 when they had a fullness of joy. Something else happened that Nephi doesn't tell us about, but the result was that they rejoiced exceedingly. The phrase "and it came to pass" means that something happened but it's not told what it was.

Sariah is comforted twice, rejoices twice and knows of a surety. She had her calling and election made sure, had the Second Comforter, and was caught away with Lehi and they were sealed together into the heavenly family (that's why they rejoiced exceedingly in verse 9). At least, that's the way I read it.

Their son Jacob saw the Lord at a young age (probably by 15). Who lead him "in the way"? It could have been Nephi, Lehi, or his mother Sariah. I like to think that it was his mother who mentored him so he could reach that point so young.
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #884 is a reply to message #878] Fri, 10 August 2012 05:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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I find it interesting that some may think this thread is trying to judge the lives of those in the scriptures. Did this one receive it, or that one? However, as the last few posts have made clear to me, these scriptures don't always offer proof of someone receiving their C&E, but do offer clues and guides. We study them to better understand what is required to obtain our own C&E, and not to make ourselves feel superior or pass judgement on those from the past whose lives are recorded for us. I doubt anyone who has already contributed to this thread has been thinking on these lines, however, there are new members of this forum every day. This has been a wonderful thread so far and I look forward to more insights into the circumstances and methods involved in obtaining ones C&E.

- Dragon
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #919 is a reply to message #834] Thu, 16 August 2012 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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coachmarc wrote on Mon, 06 August 2012 06:49

Joseph Smith and Sidney Ridgon did as well:

D&C 76

19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.

20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;

21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father


Or did JS first receive his C&E here?

Quote:
Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee. Go thy way walk in my statutes and keep my commandments. Behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucified for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life. Behold, the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel and keep not my commandments. They draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to their ungodliness and to bring to pass that which has been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and apostles behold and lo, I come quickly as it written of me in the cloud clothed in the glory of my Father." (Joseph Smith's First Vision, 1832 account)




~Jules
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #923 is a reply to message #919] Fri, 17 August 2012 08:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc
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Jules, I don't necessarily equate C&E as I do the "fullness" of the Son/Father. The examples I posted referred to these men having receive the fullness, apparently well after already receiving forgiveness and their C&E. There certainly seems to be an order of things.
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #1032 is a reply to message #243] Tue, 28 August 2012 00:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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I just ran into this:

Quote:
Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the achildren of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are bchanged through faith on his name; therefore, ye are cborn of him and have become his dsons and his daughters.

8 And under this head ye are made afree, and there is bno other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other cname given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should dtake upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.


Did this group receive their C&E as well?


~Jules
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #1033 is a reply to message #1032] Tue, 28 August 2012 01:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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Jules,
When you put it that way it sort of completes a thought I have been developing in my mind. Nephi grew up from a young age having his C&E, and his brother Jacob from an even younger age did as well. It is possible they developed a society where the Church truly led people to their C&E on a regular basis. Alma's teachings point directly to achieving the C&E rather than only to repentance and baptism. Thus, it is not a big stretch of the imagination for me to think everyone who agreed with King Benjamin's words entered into the new and everlasting covenant that day. And when Alma went out to preach, it was to those who had not yet achieved their C&E as much as it was to those who no longer believed in repentance.


- Dragon
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #1056 is a reply to message #537] Sat, 01 September 2012 02:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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bishop wrote on Sun, 24 June 2012 14:21

As a point of conjecture, I believe that Alma the younger received his CE when the angel appeared unto him the second time in Alma 8:15
" 15 Blessed art thou, Alma; therefore, lift up thy head and rejoice, for thou hast great cause to rejoice; for thou hast been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time which thou receivedst thy first message from him. Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you."


Or was it here Bishop?

Quote:
23 And it came to pass after they had fasted and prayed for the space of atwo days and two nights, the limbs of Alma received their strength, and he stood up and began to speak unto them, bidding them to be of good comfort:

24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been aredeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be aborn again; yea, bborn of God, cchanged from their carnal and dfallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his esons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in anowise inherit the kingdom of God.


It seems that from what is said in verse 24, he wasn't just being taught these concepts, he had RECEIVED the promise, AND following, Alma discusses how the Lord taught him that in order to be redeemed, others had to change from carnal to righteous, and receive the promise themselves - as he just had.


~Jules
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #1057 is a reply to message #1056] Sat, 01 September 2012 03:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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Silly me, CAIN had received his C&E!! Does anyone have a source for the moment he received it? Or do we just understand that based upon how far he "fell"....?

~Jules
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #1170 is a reply to message #1057] Mon, 24 September 2012 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JulesGP
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Not sure where/when, but clearly Melchizedek had received his C&E:

Quote:
"But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of high priesthood according to the holy order of God" (Alma 13:14-18)


~Jules
Re: scripture references of experiences of others having their C&E made [message #1195 is a reply to message #1170] Tue, 02 October 2012 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
JulesGP
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Registered: May 2012
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OK, so this topic seems to be becoming a "hobby" for me.... Razz

This is regarding Nephi - the grandson of Heleman:

Quote:
15 And it came to pass that Nephi--having been visited by angels and also the voice of the Lord, therefore having seen angels, and being eye-witness, and having had power given unto him that he might know concerning the ministry of Christ, and also being eye-witness to their quick return from righteousness unto their wickedness and abominations;

16 Therefore, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds--went forth among them in that same year, and began to testify, boldly, repentance and remission of sins through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

17 And he did minister many things unto them; and all of them cannot be written, and a part of them would not suffice, therefore they are not written in this book. And Nephi did minister with power and with great authority.


What I'm seeing here are some heavy implications. He was given a power that is not given to everyone (possibly the sealing powers....) which is noted in both 15 and 17.

And in 17, it discusses things he ministered to them that could not be written (or new doctrine - not something that had been written before). This implies doctrine that is received from the Second Comforter - or directly from the Savior, as explained here:

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

SO, I think that he had not only received his C&E, received the sealing powers, but also received the Second Comforter.


~Jules
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