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Home » Angels, Demons, Miracles and the like... » Testimonies You Have Gained and How You Gained Them » Turning of Hearts to Fathers (The Scripture Expounded Through Revelation)
Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1066] Fri, 07 September 2012 23:44 Go to next message
mormonhah is currently offline  mormonhah
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As I was lying in bed this morning, I was pondering on the apostasy of the church in the latter days and wondering what the responsibility was of our ancestors that allowed this apostasy to overtake them, especially so shortly after the death of Joseph Smith. Many of them had known him personally. Many of them had heard him prophesy. Many of them had loved him and had committed their lives to the Lord and had lived through many miracles.

The apostasy to which I refer is when the saints had wholeheartedly rejected polygamy, not cared for the many women who had families, and a church president who literally made a covenant with Satan (the Manifesto). Regardless of whether or not polygamy was sanctioned of the Lord is irrelevant. The saints wanted statehood. They were more interested in their lustful desires (goods being shipped in by railway, public education) than establishing Deseret (free from the clutches of the US Government).

They had multiple opportunities to repent, to live simply, to have peace, but somehow they just couldn't apply D&C 103:5-10 to themselves.

At that time, God was ready to burn the vineyard but the servant stayed his hand and we were given the opportunity to come to earth. (Jacob 5:47-51)

As I pondered about how we have been born into such a great deceit and how our ancestors literally sold out themselves and the following generations, I grieved at what they must be feeling now for committing such iniquities after they had received so much light.

I then had a revelation that the scripture which we often quote to refer to doing temple work for the dead came to mind: The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers...(D&C 138:47)

What are those promises? To redeem the dead. How can the dead be redeemed if they aren't worthy? I cannot fully answer that question except that I KNOW that Joseph Smith would go to hell for Emma. I feel very confident in saying that there is no doubt that he has done this and he helped to redeem her.

I know that some of the circumstances that I have faced in my life could be considered beyond the depths of hell. I have had to suffer unthinkable torment from those who call themselves saints. I have been an outcast for the most part of my life because I was never willing to fit in. I am not going to try to compare my problems to others because I have no idea what each person has faced but to make a long story short - I felt abandoned by God for the most of my life. After receiving my patriarchal blessing, I even refused to read it believing that it was only promises meant for the next life.

Realizing that a lot of my sorrows were a direct result of the iniquity of the saints and their turning from the teachings of Christ, I could have been bitter, and I was for a good portion of my life. I will explain how I came to forgive and eventually to love unconditionally to the present - that now I have no need to forgive as I am no longer angry, don't hold grudges, and have been freed of those painful burdens.

I (and we) are going to have to do the work that our ancestors failed to do and that is WHY we have to turn our hearts to them - to love them in spite of what they left us and to forgive them enough to save them.

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:6)

The other side of this is turning the hearts of the father to the children. I have received a witness of who my guardian angel is -- my great-great grandfather. I have heard his voice and he has been around me through some pretty difficult trials.

He would have been alive in the period of time during this stated apostasy.

I love him. I know he made mistakes but I have first-hand knowledge of some of the things he has done for me lately.

That is my personal revelation and witness.



If I had not actually got into this work and been called of God, I would back out. But I cannot back out: I have no doubt of the truth.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1068 is a reply to message #1066] Sat, 08 September 2012 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Seeker is currently offline  Seeker
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Thank you for sharing your insight and experience. Also, welcome to the forum.

~ Seeker
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1073 is a reply to message #1068] Sun, 09 September 2012 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mormonhah is currently offline  mormonhah
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Thank you Seeker.

The scripture reads like this:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:6)

First: The hearts of the fathers to the children. What is the purpose for this if they were actually living righteously? They know their time of probation has passed and the only way for redemption is for one (or some) of their progenitors who are still living to WORK for them. While temple work may be a small slice of the pie, for those who died with this condemnation intact, the only way to be redeemed is through the living.

This is where Nephi talks about the voice as one crying from the dust (2 Nephi 33:13). While I don't hear distinct voices, that scripture jumped off the page at me because I have felt pushed or pulled in a specific direction by my ancestors.

Second: The hearts of the children to the fathers. I could never have understood this if I had not FIRST learned to love unconditionally. If I had realized how I had been born into this deceit and the role they played in it, I may have been angry. I am not.

I had another revelation this morning which clarified the earlier revelation. I am very grateful for the role I am about to play in saving their souls (Obadiah 1:21), for I will literally be their savior and how great shall be my joy.

Now, to prepare myself for what is to come next. The violence, the imprisonment, and the execution. Please pray for me. I am not afraid but I feel pretty weak and insignificant.



If I had not actually got into this work and been called of God, I would back out. But I cannot back out: I have no doubt of the truth.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1080 is a reply to message #1073] Mon, 10 September 2012 23:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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Mormonhah,
Welcome to the group, and thank you for sharing. I can't say I agree with much of what you have written here. Can you give specific examples of women who were not cared for? Are you referring to those who had been married in a polygamist marriages prior to the manifesto? Or to women who lost their husbands?

As for myself, I am a polygamist. My first wife died, and I remarried. On church records, I am married to both for eternity.


- Dragon
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1081 is a reply to message #1080] Tue, 11 September 2012 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mormonhah is currently offline  mormonhah
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Many wives were simply abandoned because the husband chose one wife with which to live. Many were ostracized (contrary to popular belief, polygamy was not something that most members of the church celebrated). The church did very little to nothing to assist them.

My g-g-g grandfather was a well-known Seventy. He went on a mission and came back with a young wife, without even consulting his existing wife. She divorced him and remarried.

He then took a few more wives, including two sisters, all of whom he abandoned except for 1 when the Manifesto was proclaimed law. It must have been a relief to him as he did not care for his other wives or children.

This is my history only. There are many sad and more embarrassing stories.
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1082 is a reply to message #1081] Tue, 11 September 2012 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mormonhah is currently offline  mormonhah
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A more detailed account of the fallout after the Manifesto was written by Michael Quinn. I only suggest that the information be read, prayed over, and then you can make your own decision as to its truthfulness:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62597201/Authorized-Post-Manifesto-Polygamy-by-Michael-Quinn
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1083 is a reply to message #1082] Tue, 11 September 2012 18:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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Very interesting stuff. I know my own great grandpa was married in 1894 and 1903, and lived with both his wives until their death. He was part of those polygamist marriages performed in Mexico. He lived in Salt Lake City after the incident with Pancho Villa. I have heard it said he sat in church with both his wives, and since he had 17 children, they must have taken up two rows. He lived in a duplex with one wife and kids in one side, and the other wife and kids in the other. They lived there together well into the 1950's.

I know from personal research and experience that no plural marriage can or should be performed without three specific elements.
1. The consent of the first wife.
2. The consent of the Church
3. They must be performed in the temple.

The documentation you have shown indicates all three were violated at one point or another, and this is consistent with what I know of Church History. All I can say is I consider it a sin to abandon a wife or two or six. Clearly they did not understand the eternal part of eternal marriage. I am grateful my own great grandfather stuck with his two wives, despite the questioning glances.


- Dragon
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1110 is a reply to message #1083] Mon, 17 September 2012 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mormonhah is currently offline  mormonhah
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The following is purportedly the last dream recorded by Joseph Smith before he was killed. I share it with you as a culmination of the many revelations and promptings I have been given lately. It is not my own writing. It is by someone named "dan."

Weeping For Zion
Bearing Evidence of Neglect

You could understand a hesitant nature as Joseph turned and looked back. Headed to Carthage Jail for the last time. He had wanted to take the saints to the Rocky Mountains. He felt and had prophesied that they would go there and become a vast people in the shadows of that cathedral. They indeed did but Joseph didn't go with them. He left a church in turmoil. Like leaving for vacation by saying good-bye to his irate baby at the babysitter's house. Indeed, the lower laws have been embraced and the saints have shaken hands with the Gentiles now. Joseph had much to worry about. It may have been the fault of a people unwilling to live Celestial laws in a Telestial existence but Joseph knew from several personal insights, including the two discussed below, that when the servants of God returned to make the house aright they would find corruption muddying the once clears waters of revelation. Anxiety over this is prevalent in the dreams below but let's read them to find parallels and what they tell us about us.

The last recorded dream we have in our possession is recorded below:

I was back in Kirtland, Ohio, and thought I would take a walk out by myself, and view my old farm, which I found grown up with weeds and brambles, and altogether bearing evidence of neglect and want of culture. I went into the barn, which I found without floor or doors, with the weather-boarding off, and was altogether in keeping with the farm.

While I viewed the desolation around me, and was contemplating how it might be recovered from the curse upon it, there came rushing into the barn a company of furious men, who commenced to pick a quarrel with me.

The leader of the party ordered me to leave the barn and farm, stating it was none of mine, and that I must give up all hope of ever possessing it.

I told him the farm was given me by the Church, and although I had not had any use of it for some time back, still I had not sold it, and according to righteous principles it belonged to me or the Church.

He then grew furious and began to rail upon me, and threaten me, and said it never did belong to me nor to the Church.

I then told him that I did not think it worth contending about, that I had no desire to live upon it in its present state, and if he thought he had a better right I would not quarrel with him about it but leave; but my assurance that I would not trouble him at present did not seem to satisfy him, as he seemed determined to quarrel with me, and threatened me with the destruction of my body.

While he was thus engaged, pouring out his bitter words upon me, a rabble rushed in and nearly filled the barn, drew out their knives, and began to quarrel among themselves for the premises, and for a moment forgot me, at which time I took the opportunity to walk out of the barn about up to my ankles in mud.

When I was a little distance from the barn, I heard them screeching and screaming in a very distressed manner, as it appeared they had engaged in a general fight with their knives. While they were thus engaged, the dream or vision ended. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 p. 393)

In the dream the vineyard is likened unto Joseph's old barn and property. The dream I believe, is a bit more specific than the below parable, speaking of the church proper and not the broader idea of the vineyard as a whole. Joseph begins by telling of its appearance being in disarray. He refers to a "curse" that has been put upon it. I can't help but think this is a continuation of our condemnation, which started in Joseph's day and our continual decline in revelation and Celestial law.

Joseph views the place and is rather sad at its degenerate state. He even ponders how to fix it up (What a work that would be!). A "company" of men than come in arguing, tell Joseph it isn't his, though they can't seem to agree on whose it is. They threaten Joseph with his life. Joseph says whatever, you can have it and determines to leave. This tells me that we are not talking about an eternal spiritual inheritance here, but rather a physical structure, as Joseph would have argued harder to keep it. Organizations, buildings, systems people who worship them, etc...the expendable part of the church. The guy continues to tear into him, but another group enters the fray claiming ownership. While these two parties are arguing, Joseph peaceably leaves.

Of course I liken this to the servant, whose coming causes a stir amongst the church and its people and leaving to the wilderness out the backdoor (3 Ne. 21:9-10). The servant steps into the situation for a moment. His presence is alarming to those who are in charge. He states his right to set the church in order (section 85). They fight him over it, and he decides to take those who will come with him and turn the "church" (barn) entirely over to the hand of flesh.

When he/they leave, it's a sticky situation. Mud covers them which would slow the departure but mainly just leave unsightly residue that would need to be cleansed later, on all those who go with him. The mud would be cleaned and a better organization set up when they get to a new inheritance (JS-M 1:27).

As he leaves, Joseph hears the men fight for their lives over it. I would assume that these two parties are the makers of the covenant of death (Isa. 28:15,18). The Church Corporation and the Gov't they shook hands with. The Gov't brings the knives to the party and all those who relied on the arm of flesh are taken off guard by it. While those who recognized the true servant of God depart for a better place with mud on their clothes from past experiences (2 Nephi 28:14).

The next text is a parable given to Joseph via revelation which tells of a similar event:

A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive-trees; And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive-trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard. Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive-trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower. And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower? And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace? Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things. And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord. And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive-trees. Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! What is the cause of this great evil? (DC 101:44-51)

This section begins with the building of the barn, establishing a foundation whereon a marvelous work could be built in the future (D&C 64:33). The foundation was supposed to be the Church of Christ and of the firstborn and the Kingdom of God. But alas the barn was built but the tower never finished.

We hear the words of the servants, the watchmen (Isa. 56: 10), trying to decide what to with the goods that the foundation is producing. The barn has been built, but the watch tower never finished. These watchmen begin to argue amongst themselves. They see no need to build a tower (relationship with God, from which warning springs for Israel), as they are in a time of peace! Peace, all is well in Zion! They become at variance with each other. They give the sacred money to the building of Babylon. They become lazy in their callings, even falling asleep on the job. All of these descriptions Isaiah uses to describe the prophet, priest, and leaders of Ephraim in the last day (Isa. 56:10-11; 28:7). As a result, the barn is run over. It is left in disarray by the enemies of the Lord. Just as Joseph saw it upon his return, the servants are at odds with each other and have left the whole property with a curse and in shambles.

In this parable we see what Joseph does with the property. And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry; And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money. Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen. And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land. (D&C 101:55-58)

He has no use of the building in its run down state. He has no use of the watchmen who have constituted enemies. He has no use for the corrupt version of the church that the evil watchmen had built in the place of the sure foundation. Joseph is told to walk away from it. He prophesies here the scattering of those watchmen (a covenant curse is to be scattered, not gathered). The dream remarked that they largely do this to themselves because of their bickering with the Gov't of the land, to whom they owe their statehood and tax exempt status. The Lord uses his left hand and the knife of the enemy to scatter them. Then, using the foundation originally built, they rebuild and grow Zion for the last time.

We are given the promise of his return, the turmoil it will bring and the cleansing of the people in Isaiah, repeatedly. But here above we are given two instances of Joseph prophesying of that now near event. May we have the faith to see through the bickering and understand the voice and servants of God. Things are not always as they seem, thus only those who take the Holy Spirit for their guide and are not deceived by false owners, prophets, will recognize and gather with the carcass in the wilderness (D&C 45:57).

CONCLUSIONS

With my brother-in-law, its always "What's the take home message?" There are three main points pointed out here that are pertinent to us in the vineyard these last days: Joseph's role, the slothful, bickering servant's role, and who do we follow?

Joseph's role is that of an innocent leader doing his job. When he returns (as the Rod or spokesman for the Davidic Servant unto the houses of Joseph), he is not recognized by those who presently run the farm that he established. These men threaten him with bodily harm. He knows when to leave, gets reinforcement and rebuild.

The slothful servants are running the farm at the time of his return. It is a time of disarray. They are asleep as to the issues. They consider their authority to be supreme and do not recognize the true servant of God. They have ruined the farm through mismanagement. They have built Babylon instead of Zion. Like the people they have charge over, Babylon overtakes them and they are scattered. Instead of warning the people, they have taught another doctrine, that of "Peace, all is well in Zion".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some relevant Isaiah, to lighten the mood (chapter 53, commentary by Gileadi)

Isaiah 53:1

1 WHO hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

The revelation is talked about in chapter 28. There it was a question whether people would go on from the lesser portion of the word of God to the greater portion in other words from the fundamentals (milk) to the deeper topics (meat), including direct revelation and divine instruction (see 28:9). Most people are not receptive to this higher instruction that is offered to them. There is a dichotomy between those who do accept and those who don't. In Isaiah, it is always the few (chosen) that do and the many (called) do not accept revelation and divine instruction.

So it is here. "Who has believed our revelation?" Some yes, but very few overall. Some go on and accept divine revelation from God and hold fast to those things. They keep the laws of God and all things that he has revealed through his servants, the prophets. But most do not. The majority of the people are in an apostate or descending mode, descending down the spiritual ladder, and don't come back up. That's why the judgments of God come upon them.They are even losing what they had.

The pairing of these two ideas who has believed our revelation and on whose account has the arm of the Lord been revealed the paralleling of these two ideas tells you that those who believe the revelation are those on whose account the arm of the Lord has been revealed. In other words, the arm of the Lord is revealed to those who believe the revelation. This implies that those who don't believe God's revelation don't accept the arm of God. They do not understand what the arm of the Lord represents. It is a person.

The two arms of the God seen in 51:5 are righteousness and salvation. Salvation is the Lord himself. Righteousness is the servant or forerunner who establishes righteousness so that salvation may come. These are the two arms that judge the people. In this case, we are talking about the arm of salvation. However, if you don't accept the one arm, you won't accept the other. If you don't accept the forerunner and all the preparatory work he does, you will not be in a position to accept the other.

In this case, the arm of the Lord appears to be talking about the suffering person who is the Lord Himself.

Isaiah 53:2

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. (Like a sapling he grew up in his presence, a stalk out of arid ground. He had no distinguishing appearance that we should notice him; he had no pleasing aspect, that we should find him attractive.)

The sapling and stalk idea is similar to chapter 11:1, which talks about the stalk of Jesse (shoot, stalk, branch, graft). Those are messianic titles.These are all metaphors that describe the messianic individual. Jeremiah literally calls the Lord's servant the branch.

Growing up in his presence and out of arid ground is a contrast. Arid ground implies a cursed state. This, in turn, implies wickedness or apostasy by people in general at the time of his growing up. Yet, he himself grows up in the presence of the Lord, meaning that he himself has access to God; he is not cut off from his presence as most of the people are cut off because of their wickedness. This is quite a contrast between him and the people with whom he grows up. He is not a charismatic personality that is a natural charmer, statesman or very popular.

While there are many word links throughout Isaiah to other parts, these 10 verses are different in that there are very few links to other parts of the book. While the servant is marred in chapter 52 and healed in chapter 57, this person in this chapter dies. However, 52:1 also tells us that he awakes and arises. He is part of the same structure of the Zion motif that awakes and arises, therefore he is also resurrected.

Isaiah 53:3

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

In Isaiah's context, the majority of the people are already rejecting God. Therefore, when this person appears, he represents what they oppose. This person comes from God and reflects God in all that he does. Yet he is met with disdain and rejecting. His lifestyle is a contradiction to their own. He gets very bad treatment here from those who should have welcomed and sustained him. This reiterates the suffering and humiliation he encounters. However, from Isaiah's structures, this is a necessary prelude to salvation. There is no exaltation without a prior humiliation. There is no salvation without prior suffering. The higher you go on the spiritual ladder, the more humiliation and suffering you have to go through. From Isaiah's context, this person descends below them all.

Isaiah 53:4

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

We thought he was under some kind of curse of God because he couldn't seem to come out from under this problem. Yet, what was actually happening was that he was enduring the curse that was ours and he took upon himself. This person is not guilty of any sin or transgression that would cause covenant curses to come upon him. So these adversities are not through his own fault.

Isaiah 53:5

5 But he [was] wounded (...pierced...) for our transgressions, [he was] bruised (...crushed...) for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him (: the price of our peace he incurred...); and with his stripes we are healed.

This person is some kind of proxy for the rest of us. Note the pronouns: "our transgressions," "our iniquities," "we did esteem him stricken." There is a spokesman (speaking on behalf of God's people) who is speaking about him. It is no longer the Lord speaking about the servant; it is the servant speaking about the Lord. There is a person who really knows this person and what his life is all about, what happened to him really. Whereas, we at the time it happened were not aware. This person is now pointing out what really happened.

The piercing and crushing indicate what happens to him. This links to the suffering of Christ on the cross with the piercing of the nail to his hands and feet and the spear to his side. He was crushed on the way to the cross. This occurred not for any iniquity of his own.

The difference between transgression and iniquity: Transgression of the laws of God is a sin to the person performing the act. Iniquity is the sin that is passed down from generation to generation. These can include behavioral patterns, etc. that are the results of sin. They are cumulative. They result in covenant curses that are also passed down, causing the people to labor in adverse situations. These are passed on from generation to generation. He took all of this upon himself.

Peace is a word link to other parts of Isaiah. It is the Lord himself who brings about peace in Isaiah. Also, being healed is synonymous to salvation. The main theme of this verse is that he is suffering these things for our salvation. He is doing this as a proxy, for us. Those who receive peace for whom he pays the price are the righteous, those who repent of their transgressions. This implies that there is only salvation for those who do repent. He suffers for their transgression. This is part of the law of justice. Under the law of justice, someone must pay the price for transgression. He does this, enabling mercy to take place for those who repent. This also implies that for those who don't repent, there is no mercy. There is no peace for the wicked. They themselves must suffer under the law of justice.

Isaiah 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Again the pronouns "we" and "us." "We" are identified as sheep. Sheep are kosher animals and elsewhere in Isaiah, the Lord's people are referred to as his flock. This is talking about the covenant people of the Lord, not the Gentiles. Those who receive this peace or salvation are His own covenant people. This suggests that those who are not His covenant people do not inherit peace and salvation.

We are all gone astray, going in different directions, straying away from God and the law and the covenant, and the Lord brought together on him the iniquity of us all. We are all scattered and He gathers them all up and dumps them all on him. This includes the iniquity of even those who don't repent. All they have to do is repent, and He already suffered their iniquity. Whether they repent or not, He still suffered for their iniquity.

Each of us going our own way implies that we have all left God's way.

Isaiah 53:7

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Twice it states that He opened not his mouth. He could have opened his mouth and defended Himself. He chose not to speak up because that is what God wanted him to do. He was to be submissive. God then inflicted him with harassment, slaughter, arrest and trial, being pierced, being crushed, bearing our sufferings, being shunned, and being to be worth nothing (when He was of most worth). The lamb led to slaughter is a sacrificial idea. It appears again in verse 10 as an offering for guilt. In Hebrew it is "asham" (aleph shin mem) which is ancient sacrifice under the Law of Moses that must be offered when a man transgressed. The lamb led to slaughter reminds of the Passover lamb and is another metaphor. The Passover lamb was proxy for the firstborn of Israel, that they would not die. Here, he is proxy also for the firstborn of God's people who will not die spiritually or physically. He is led to slaughter, meaning He dies.

He comes before the people of God, His sheep, the covenant people. He is sheared, indicating His clothes are taken away.

Isaiah 53:8

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken? (By arrest and trial he was taken away. Who can apprise his generation that he was cut off from the land of the living for the crime of my people to whom the blow was due?)

This again reinforces Isaiah's indication of this man as our proxy. He dies for his people's crime. Note the "my people" which is the covenant formula. For their transgressions, justice needed to be done. He suffered for their transgressions.

This also implies that it was done formally, by trial and arrest. He wasn't just mugged in a wood. He went through an official execution.

"Generation" implies more than just the covenant people. It suggests almost a dynasty, possibly his lineage. In verse 10 it talks about his having lineage, offspring. Being cut off from the land of the living almost happens to Hezekiah, but he is healed. The same with the servant. However, this person dies and his death is part of his suffering and humiliation.

Isaiah 53:9

9 And he made his grave with the wicked (He was appointed among the wicked in death...), and with the rich in his death; because (...yet...) he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.

In the Masoretic text, these first two lines are reversed. The Servant/Tyrant parallel helps to identify that they were reversed. He was not appointed among the wicked in his burial, nor among the rich in his death, but just the reverse, being among the wicked in death and rich in his burial. Christ, of course dies between two thieves and was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimethea, a wealthy man.

The word "appoint" is also used with the Lord's Servant. Both are appointed by God, one higher on the spiritual ladder than himself, who is his Lord. Each one has his Lord who is above him. To us, Jehovah is our Lord. Yet, on his wrung of the spiritual ladder, there is one above him. We also know that the first two lines of verse 9 are reversed because the wicked to violence and the rich are deceptive.

Isaiah 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (But the Lord willed to crush him, causing him suffering, that, if he made his life an offering for guilt, he might see his offspring and prolong his days, and that the purposes of the Lord might prosper in his hand.)

To crush is like to crush the life out of something or to crush his spirit. The Lord willed that. In order to bring about the redemption of the world, whoever gives him their covenantal allegiance can obtain salvation and peace and healing for the sake of so many people in their lost and fallen state. For their sake, the Lord willed to crush him, that he made his life an offering for their guilt (not his own). On the higher levels of the spiritual ladder, one does not suffer for ones own sins, but for the sins of others. He could not be a proxy for others if he himself was a transgressor. The higher you go on the spiritual ladder, the greater or more effective is the proxy role you can perform. Hezekiah's offering his life only merited deliverance of his people from the besieging Assyrians. Those on the seraph level, can merit more than that. On the level of the spiritual ladder where the Lord himself suffers and dies, all sins and iniquities can be taken away. This is the highest proxy function known in Isaiah.

Note the mention of offspring here and burial in verse 9. Both these are covenant blessings. In the tyrant parallel, the tyrant has no offspring or burial. All the tyrant's people are destroyed and his corpse lies unburied. In other words, the king of Babylon suffers from covenant curses while this person enjoys covenant blessings. One may argue that the offspring referred to here is adopted or spiritual offspring. However, in Isaiah, the literal meaning is always the first one that applies. If he did not have literal offspring, he would be under a curse. But God has provided that he is not under a curse because he is innocent.
Days are prolonged when you honor father and mother (fourth commandment). In the Old Testament, if you honor father and mother, your days are prolonged on the land by your offspring. Abraham has his offspring as the sands of the sea, etc., where as the King of Babylon has his offspring cut off. (see chapter 14)

That the purposes of the Lord might prosper in his hand is referring to his right hand, the servant. This is transitioning to the next section of text. This can also apply to any of the Lord's servants. They cannot be empowered if the whole thing rests on a false foundation. The servant himself, along with all the rest of us, are sinners and have need to repent of our transgressions of the law of God. When we do, we are forgiven because he is our proxy and has taken our guilt and transgressions upon himself. If he had not done this, the purposes of the Lord would not prosper in us. The Lord has done this, provided this proxy atonement for our sins, and based on that foundation, we can function as his servants.

Isaiah 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail (...toil...) of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (...and by bearing their iniquities, shall my servant, the righteous one, vindicate many.)

Who will see the toil of whose soul? The second "his" is referring to the servant, the one who establishes righteousness. He too suffers. Anyone on the spiritual ladder who performs a messianic or proxy role suffers. They don't suffer as much as Christ suffered, but they suffer. Again, not for their own transgressions, but for others.

Now the Lord Himself is speaking. He has done his work of atonement, his proxy salvation, now he talks about the Servant again. Between the end of chapter 52 and here, there is a chiasm of sorts a-b-a where the middle part of the chiasm is the Lord Himself.

The Servant also goes through humiliation and exaltation. His appearance is marred beyond human likeness he appalled people yet he became exceedingly eminent and highly exalted. (see 52:13-14) Like King Hezekiah, he has toil of soul. When the person endures this well and suffers in humble submission and the Lord sees it, there comes a point where it is enough and the Lord is satisfied.

Knowledge is a covenant term. It implies knowledge of the covenant as well as knowledge of God and His ways. He knows that according to the terms of the covenant, if he intercedes on behalf of others and pays the price for their transgressions, he through his sacrifice can merit others deliverance. In Hezekiah's case, that is limited to physical deliverance. In the Lord's case, it includes all deliverance.

Knowledge is parallel with "bearing their iniquities." Because of his knowledge of the terms of the covenant, he is willing to bear their iniquities. The Lord does this. The servant has seen the Lord do this and does the same thing on a lesser level. This servant is the one who personifies righteousness. He is the model of righteousness for us to follow. Because of his knowledge of the terms of the covenant, he knows that he can do this for them. Because of this, they do not have to suffer death of the besieging Assyrians or other calamities, but because of the Servant's intercession, they can be delivered.
Isaiah 53:12

12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The Lord Himself does this in the early part of the chapter. Here, however, the Lord is speaking of his servant who does the same thing on a lower scale. The servant emulates the Lord.

Every one of these sentences has a type in Israel's history. Caleb received an inheritance among the great (when the Israelites came into the Promised Land) because he was one of the two spies sent out who remained faithful to the Lord when they came back. Joshua and Caleb gave a true report. They were the only ones who came out of Egypt who inherited the Promised Land.

David divided the spoil with the mighty in his war with the Philistines. David provides a type for this person. Hezekiah is also a type, pouring out his soul unto death. David was also numbered with criminals after being anointed by Samuel. Christ was numbered with criminals.

Job bore the sins of many (his children). Job was smitten. However, we see that in his proxy role, Job was only paying the price for others sins, not his own.

Moses made intercession for the entire nation when they made the golden calf.

The servant is like a lot of these heroes of the Old Testament, performing many of the same functions. All the major events in Israel's history are roles that the servant assumes. He would have to be on the same spiritual level as those characters of the Old Testament were.



If I had not actually got into this work and been called of God, I would back out. But I cannot back out: I have no doubt of the truth.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1442 is a reply to message #1110] Mon, 12 November 2012 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWitness
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Holy wow! This thread, especially the broken down verses of Isaiah above, have given me significant insight into my PB that were previously locked from my understanding. Thank you Mormonhah. Thank you very much!
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1605 is a reply to message #1442] Fri, 14 December 2012 16:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Called to Serve is currently offline  Called to Serve
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My grandmother was a character who probably wouldn't have garnered respect from anybody, no matter how easy to please they might have been. She abandoned my mother when she was a toddler, ran around with men, frequented bars, and so forth. She was not well tolerated, let alone liked, by her own children.

There was a time a few months ago where it was revealed to me that it just may have been part of God's plan for my grandmother to be like this. I cannot describe my understanding of the situation because it is too intricate. It's just that her character caused certain things to happen that brought about the circumstances that led to my mom's conversion and then to my being taught the gospel as I was. I don't believe she "failed" in life the way most of us would have thought she did.

Of course, this has served to turn my heart to my grandmother. I have felt her presence during some very spiritual experiences I have had. I think it is important for us to love our ancestors as God loves them.


Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1881 is a reply to message #1066] Mon, 07 January 2013 20:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brrgilbert is currently offline  brrgilbert
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I have come to realize that Heavenly Father is the ultimate Social Engineer. With His infinite foreknowledge; knowing His offspring and knowing what they would do in given circumstances, He orchestrated their(our) "times" and "places" whereby the most "fruitful" conditions would exist for Him to reap the harvest in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is not by happenstance that we are who we are. Our "conditions" are optimally given and tailor made so that God's purposes can and will be brought forth. He is a glorious and loving Father through which all things shall work out for our and His good. The Kingdom does not need to be forced. It will be an orchestrated procession of righteousness with all the pure in heart doing their individual parts. The sum of the whole will be greater than the sum of the individual parts. The way is through peace and harmony. That harmony needs to be quickened.

"I must endure the presence of two or three caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."

The Little Prince by St. Exupery
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #1882 is a reply to message #1066] Mon, 07 January 2013 20:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
brrgilbert is currently offline  brrgilbert
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I have come to realize that Heavenly Father is the ultimate Social Engineer. With His infinite foreknowledge; knowing His offspring and knowing what they would do in given circumstances, He orchestrated their(our) "times" and "places" whereby the most "fruitful" conditions would exist for Him to reap the harvest in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is not by happenstance that we are who we are. Our "conditions" are optimally given and tailor made so that God's purposes can and will be brought forth. He is a glorious and loving Father through which all things shall work out for our and His good. The Kingdom does not need to be forced. It will be an orchestrated procession of righteousness with all the pure in heart doing their individual parts. The sum of the whole will be greater than the sum of the individual parts. The way is through peace and harmony. That harmony needs to be quickened.

"I must endure the presence of two or three caterpillars if I wish to become acquainted with the butterflies."

The Little Prince by St. Exupery
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #2377 is a reply to message #1882] Fri, 12 April 2013 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kingdom of ZION is currently offline  Kingdom of ZION
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brrgilbert wrote on Mon, 07 January 2013 20:39
I have come to realize that Heavenly Father is the ultimate Social Engineer. With His infinite foreknowledge; knowing His offspring and knowing what they would do in given circumstances, He orchestrated their(our) "times" and "places" whereby the most "fruitful" conditions would exist for Him to reap the harvest in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is not by happenstance that we are who we are. Our "conditions" are optimally given and tailor made so that God's purposes can and will be brought forth. He is a glorious and loving Father through which all things shall work out for our and His good. The Kingdom does not need to be forced. It will be an orchestrated procession of righteousness with all the pure in heart doing their individual parts. The sum of the whole will be greater than the sum of the individual parts. The way is through peace and harmony. That harmony needs to be quickened.


I agree with everything you have said here, and I would go further to say His 'infinite foreknowledge' as infinite. Not only does He know the very moment He organized a spirit whether they will one day become a Son of Perdition or G_d. He knows billions upon billions of years without end before He organize that same spirit what kind of being it is and everything they will do and think until the ends of eternity, without end. And though He does everything for everyone's good, everyone will only prove what they are to themselves ultimately.

Shalom


Coming of Eliyah is yet future, the Restoration of Yesrael and the Kingdom or Gospel and the other 2/3's of the Book of Mormon will follow. If Eliyah does not come, then with the coming of the Messiah, the earth shall be cursed and utterly wasted!
Re: Turning of Hearts to Fathers [message #2378 is a reply to message #1110] Sat, 13 April 2013 10:17 Go to previous message
Kingdom of ZION is currently offline  Kingdom of ZION
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mormonhah wrote on Mon, 17 September 2012 16:12

Joseph knew from several personal insights, including the two discussed below, that when the servants of God returned to make the house aright they would find corruption muddying the once clears waters of revelation. Anxiety over this is prevalent in the dreams below but let's read them to find parallels and what they tell us about us.

The last recorded dream (of Joseph Smith) we have in our possession is recorded below:

I was back in Kirtland, Ohio, and thought I would take a walk out by myself, and view my old farm, which I found grown up with weeds and brambles, and altogether bearing evidence of neglect and want of culture. I went into the barn, which I found without floor or doors, with the weather-boarding off, and was altogether in keeping with the farm.

While I viewed the desolation around me, and was contemplating how it might be recovered from the curse upon it, there came rushing into the barn a company of furious men, who commenced to pick a quarrel with me.

The leader of the party [Prophet] ordered me to leave the barn [Temple] and farm [Joseph (His) place in the Church or Kingdom], stating it was none of mine, and that I must give up all hope of ever possessing it.

I told him the farm was given me by the Church, and although I had not had any use of it for some time back, still I had not sold it, and according to righteous principles it belonged to me or the Church.

He then grew furious and began to rail upon me, and threaten me, and said it never did belong to me nor to the Church.

I then told him that I did not think it worth contending about, that I had no desire to live upon it in its present state, and if he thought he had a better right I would not quarrel with him about it but leave; but my assurance that I would not trouble him at present did not seem to satisfy him, as he seemed determined to quarrel with me, and threatened me with the destruction of my body.

While he was thus engaged, pouring out his bitter words upon me, a rabble rushed in and nearly filled the barn, drew out their knives, and began to quarrel among themselves for the premises, and for a moment forgot me, at which time I took the opportunity to walk out of the barn about up to my ankles in mud.

When I was a little distance from the barn, I heard them screeching and screaming in a very distressed manner, as it appeared they had engaged in a general fight with their knives. While they were thus engaged, the dream or vision ended. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 p. 393)

In the dream the vineyard is likened unto Joseph's old barn and property. The dream I believe, is a bit more specific than the below parable, speaking of the church proper and not the broader idea of the vineyard as a whole. Joseph begins by telling of its appearance being in disarray. He refers to a "curse" that has been put upon it. I can't help but think this is a continuation of our condemnation, which started in Joseph's day and our continual decline in revelation and Celestial law.

Joseph views the place and is rather sad at its degenerate state. He even ponders how to fix it up (What a work that would be!). A "company" of men than come in arguing, tell Joseph it isn't his, though they can't seem to agree on whose it is. They threaten Joseph with his life. Joseph says whatever, you can have it and determines to leave. This tells me that we are not talking about an eternal spiritual inheritance here, but rather a physical structure, as Joseph would have argued harder to keep it. Organizations, buildings, systems people who worship them, etc...the expendable part of the church. The guy continues to tear into him, but another group enters the fray claiming ownership. While these two parties are arguing, Joseph peaceably leaves.

Clearly he is shown and telling us that it is the whole farm, not just the buildings like the barn which is a veiled allegory of the temple(s). IF HE does COMES or RETURNS (JS) he came as ETB (Benson). The second group then comes in while he is the President and claims the church and takes it over and will eventually destroy each other (all the GA's, still yet future).

Of course I liken this to the servant, whose coming causes a stir amongst the church and its people and leaving to the wilderness out the backdoor (3 Ne. 21:9-10). The servant steps into the situation for a moment. His presence is alarming to those who are in charge. He states his right to set the church in order (section 85). They fight him over it, and he decides to take those who will come with him and turn the "church" (barn) entirely over to the hand of flesh.

When he/they leave, it's a sticky situation. Mud covers them which would slow the departure but mainly just leave unsightly residue that would need to be cleansed later, on all those who go with him. The mud would be cleaned and a better organization set up when they get to a new inheritance (JS-M 1:27).

As he leaves, Joseph hears the men fight for their lives over it. I would assume that these two parties are the makers of the covenant of death (Isa. 28:15,18). The Church Corporation and the Gov't they shook hands with. The Gov't brings the knives to the party and all those who relied on the arm of flesh are taken off guard by it. While those who recognized the true servant of God depart for a better place with mud on their clothes from past experiences (2 Nephi 28:14).

This might be, but in the parable in D&C101, it only has the church referred to, and then the enemy comes in which destroy the twelve olive trees and that could be the Government, only it seems more likely it will be Sons of Perdition infiltrating the GA's ranks.

The next text is a parable given to Joseph via revelation which tells of a similar event:

A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive-trees; And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive-trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard. Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive-trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower. And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower? And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace? Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things. And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord. And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive-trees. Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! What is the cause of this great evil? (DC 101:44-51)

This section begins with the building of the barn, establishing a foundation whereon a marvelous work could be built in the future (D&C 64:33). The foundation was supposed to be the Church of Christ and of the firstborn and the Kingdom of God. But alas the barn was built but the tower never finished.

We hear the words of the servants, the watchmen (Isa. 56: 10), trying to decide what to with the goods that the foundation is producing. The barn has been built, but the watch tower never finished. These watchmen begin to argue amongst themselves. They see no need to build a tower (relationship with God, from which warning springs for Israel), as they are in a time of peace! Peace, all is well in Zion! They become at variance with each other. They give the sacred money to the building of Babylon. They become lazy in their callings, even falling asleep on the job. All of these descriptions Isaiah uses to describe the prophet, priest, and leaders of Ephraim in the last day (Isa. 56:10-11; 28:7). As a result, the barn is run over. It is left in disarray by the enemies of the Lord. Just as Joseph saw it upon his return, the servants are at odds with each other and have left the whole property with a curse and in shambles.

Most people do not recognize that the Tower is the Kingdom with the King upon it. And when the King (and his Priest) were taken, there is no way to build the Kingdom. JS was the King and HS was the Priest (Patriarch).

In this parable we see what Joseph does with the property. And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men [First World, Baby Forth Estate Beings], and they that are of middle age [Second World, Junior Forth Estate Beings] also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry [The Three Nephites and John the Beloved]; And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money. Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen. And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land. (D&C 101:55-58)

The Government really does not fit the bill here! It is the Sons of Perdition that are the true enemies of G_d, who come in and try to posses the 'land of inheritance' or Zion.

He has no use of the building in its run down state. He has no use of the watchmen who have constituted enemies. He has no use for the corrupt version of the church that the evil watchmen had built in the place of the sure foundation. Joseph is told to walk away from it. He prophesies here the scattering of those watchmen (a covenant curse is to be scattered, not gathered). The dream remarked that they largely do this to themselves because of their bickering with the Gov't of the land, to whom they owe their statehood and tax exempt status. [this is a much later apostasy that removes them from being his covenant people] The Lord uses his left hand and the knife of the enemy to scatter them. Then, using the foundation originally built, they rebuild and grow Zion for the last time.

We are given the promise of his return, the turmoil it will bring and the cleansing of the people in Isaiah, repeatedly. But here above we are given two instances of Joseph prophesying of that now near event. May we have the faith to see through the bickering and understand the voice and servants of God. Things are not always as they seem, thus only those who take the Holy Spirit for their guide and are not deceived by false owners, prophets, will recognize and gather with the carcass in the wilderness (D&C 45:57).

Joseph's role is that of an innocent leader doing his job. When he returns (as the Rod or spokesman for the Davidic Servant unto the houses of Joseph), he is not recognized by those who presently run the farm that he established. These men threaten him with bodily harm. He knows when to leave, gets reinforcement and rebuild.

Interesting interpretation. I KNOW he must return to re-restore keys that he holds. However the pattern from every previous dispensation is that he comes by visitation unto the next Dispensation King, not as a mortal reborn into THAT Dispensation.

The slothful servants are running the farm at the time of his return. It is a time of disarray. They are asleep as to the issues. They consider their authority to be supreme and do not recognize the true servant of God. They have ruined the farm through mismanagement. They have built Babylon instead of Zion. Like the people they have charge over, Babylon overtakes them and they are scattered. Instead of warning the people, they have taught another doctrine, that of "Peace, all is well in Zion".

The slothful servants are the General Authorities of the Church.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord Himself does this in the early part of the chapter. Here, however, the Lord is speaking of his servant who does the same thing on a lower scale. The servant emulates the Lord.

Every one of these sentences has a type in Israel's history. Caleb received an inheritance among the great (when the Israelites came into the Promised Land) because he was one of the two spies sent out who remained faithful to the Lord when they came back. Joshua and Caleb gave a true report. They were the only ones who came out of Egypt who inherited the Promised Land.

David divided the spoil with the mighty in his war with the Philistines. David provides a type for this person. Hezekiah is also a type, pouring out his soul unto death. David was also numbered with criminals after being anointed by Samuel. Christ was numbered with criminals.

Job bore the sins of many (his children). Job was smitten. However, we see that in his proxy role, Job was only paying the price for others sins, not his own.

Moses made intercession for the entire nation when they made the golden calf.

The servant is like a lot of these heroes of the Old Testament, performing many of the same functions. All the major events in Israel's history are roles that the servant assumes. He would have to be on the same spiritual level as those characters of the Old Testament were.

The prophecies say 'He will be Like unto Moses', meaning he will come and though socially awkward he will come with might miracles to deliver the Remnant.



Coming of Eliyah is yet future, the Restoration of Yesrael and the Kingdom or Gospel and the other 2/3's of the Book of Mormon will follow. If Eliyah does not come, then with the coming of the Messiah, the earth shall be cursed and utterly wasted!
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