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Home » The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints » Scripture Discussion » The Holy Bible » 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 (Discuss verses 1-15)
1 Corinthians 11:1-15 [message #1748] Fri, 28 December 2012 19:25 Go to next message
Amonhi is currently offline  Amonhi
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1 Corinthians 11

There was a topic regarding the reason women are veiled in the prayer circle. SingletoHisGlory requested my thoughts on 1 Cor. 11.

Here are my thoughts...

When reading Canonized scripture, we can do as the rest of the Christian world and assume that anything written in the bible (or other scriptures), is infallibly correct, or we can consider the scriptures as being written by men, who as inspired as they may be, are still fallible and aside from what errors were introduced by the monks over the years, and the errors introduced in translation from Greek to English and the plain and simple parts being removed, etc.. all these things and yet we still must account for the feeble errors of men and the lack of insight/revelation regarding a matter which was socially obvious at the time.

The errors of men are constant in scripture and even in the early church. For example, we see in the early Church, after Christ left and never came back, Peter took the gospel to the gentiles by revelation, but did not figure out that the gentiles did not need to be placed under the law of Moses/Aaronic Priesthood to gain salvation until Acts 15.

Also, interestingly, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie once wrote a letter to Professor Eugene England of BYU who had started teaching that God eternalyl progresses in knowledge ever learning new things.

Professor England quoted Brigham Young and some other early church leaders to support his theories. Elder McConkie wrote a lengthy rebuke in which his referenced 1 Cor. 11:19 in relation to why Brigham Young taught false doctrine to the saints as if it were church doctrine or true doctrine. Here is the quote, and the entire letter to Eugene England is attached to my post:
Quote:
I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam, and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved. I think you can also give me credit for knowing what Brigham Young said about God progressing. And again, that is something he will have to account for. As for me and my house, we will have the good sense to choose between the divergent teachings of the same man and come up with those that accord with what God has set forth in his eternal plan of salvation.

This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. Elder McConkie to Mr. Eugene England, February 19, 1981 page 6-7


According to this letter, Elder McConkie as an apostle was of the opinion that heresies must be taught among us, and more importantly, that those heresies were taught by the Prophet Brigham Young, indicating that Prophets will teach heresies and that we must learn to recognize truth independent of position.

In this letter the "heresies" taught by the Prophet Brigham Young are not simple false doctrines that have little or no bearing on our salvation, but according to McConkie, we will be dammed if we believe and follow them.
Quote:
This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us. Elder McConkie to Mr. Eugene England, February 19, 1981 page 7


Although I disagree with McConkie on many levels, he does make a good point here that even Prophets can teach false and damning doctrine. I am not however agreeing or disagreeing with Brigham Young on any points, simply presenting Bruce R. McConkies opinion as an Apostle that Prophets fulfill the requirement spelled out in 1. Cor. 11:19 by teaching damning heresies.

I am aware that such teachings fly in the face of many quotes regarding Prophets not being allowed to lead us astray. And I have studied both sides of this coin extensively and find that Prophets do lead people astray from time to time. And the most common way a prophet leads people astray is to point people to follow... himself...instead of pointing them to follow God.

This is the first step toward unrighteous dominion which requires first that people be made accountable to following a man rather than their own conscience. Once this first step is completed, then punishments can be imposed for not obeying or following the authority.

The oath and covenant of the Priesthood tells us, Quote:
We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. - Doctrine and Covenants 121:39


Prophets are not immune to such challenges and like Paul, may fall prey to its enticing as we see in the first verse of 1 Cor.:
Quote:
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 1 Cor. 11:1


1 Cor. was written by the Apostle Paul who also being a man is subject to err, (even as I myself am). It is not by following Paul that we gain life eternal, nor by remembering Paul in all things that brings us the companionship of the spirit. Nor are the ordinances from Paul that makes them important, valid or useful.

Because men are subject to err, we must learn ALL things from the Spirit who will and should teach us all things, internally. For the Kingdom of God is found, not here or there where you can see, touch, taste and smell, but within you where it is experienced and known firsthand. We then remain subject to our own testimony and conscience and no man or men nor institution in a way that negates our own agency.

Scripture is therefore ONLY that which is ratified by the spirit to us directly and internally as apposed to that which is written in books or taught over pulpits by prophets who are at times inspired.

Now, Paul begins this chapter requesting that we follow him and remember him in all things. As stated above, this is a problem among leaders who are given what they suppose to be a little authority in which they begin to seek followings so that they can exercise unrighteous dominion. It is so much easier to say, "Follow me because I have authority" than to use the righteous principles of the priesthood like persuasion.

There is no righteous reason for anyone to seek or request that we follow them. They may teach, persuade and challenge, but all men should follow the dictates of their own hearts and conscience and not any man nor men. In the Church of the Firstborn, all men and women are encouraged to follow their own conscience and the dictates of their own hearts. "To thine own self be true."

God has a solution for prophets who seek followings and who point others to themselves rather than to the source of perfection. It is taught in Ezekiel 14, focusing on verses 7-11
Quote:
For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me... and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God. - Ezekiel 14:7-11

Quite simple, and effective solution...

So, Paul starts off on the wrong foot by encouraging us to follow him while he follows Christ. Let us do what he does and not what he says.

Now, remember what McConkie said above, "This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals."

When we look at 1. Cor. 11:7, we see clearly that Paul misunderstood the nature and king of being God is...

Quote:
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 1 Cor. 11:7


This gives us insight into Paul's views of God and woman. You see, Paul believed that man was created after the image of God, but woman was NOT created after the image of God... To Paul, God was not a woman, only a man. To this Paul alludes when he says in verses 8-9,

Quote:
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 1 Cor. 11:8-9


So Paul believed that the woman was created for man's use and not that man was created for the woman. This means that to Paul, Men were greater than women and women were made for men to be subject to men, much like the animals were created for man's use and subject to man. To him, women were given as help meets meaning she would help by cooking, cleaning, and other women's duties, sexual gratification to create more men, etc. In Paul's mind, she was placed a little higher than the animals, about ranked with angels who are meant to serve man and not equal with God's.

Quote:
For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 1 Cor. 11:10


The truth is that contrary to Paul's views and the views of Paul's society, woman was not created for the man. She was created as an equal with the man in the image and glory of a female God.

Paul knew God was male, but did not understand that God was also female...

Quote:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:26-28


God made man after God's image which is not only male, but also female. Adam was created in the image of God the Father and Eve was created in the image of God the Mother. They together are God, and there is no God without male or female. Paul did not understand this, so he said,

Quote:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.


This particular statement is a direct contradiction to what was taught by King Benjamin as instructed by the angel,

Quote:
And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. Mosiah 5:7-8


Clearly King Benjamin is speaking to both men and women saying that both men and women gain freedom by making Christ their Head.

The Gods, created Adam and not wanting him to be alone created Eve. They did not created Eve in the same way they created Adam. They could have created Eve in the same way that they created Adam, but they didn't because Eve is not separate and independent from Adam, nor Adam separate or independent from Eve. They are one flesh, the same material and one being split into 2 components together making a single whole man. Not separate beings joined together, but a single being taken apart. We are not whole or complete without our other half.

Interestingly, Eve was supposedly created from a rib taken from Adam's side. Eve is not Adam's foot that he should walk on her, nor his head that he should be led by her. She was not created from his back that she should follow him nor from his front that she should lead him. She is from his side that they together as equals should stand side-by-side to take on the challenges of life, neither one leading the other. Working together as a single being, even as God.

Paul is very clear in his writings regarding his views on the relationship between men and their wives. He presents his views as church doctrine stating:

Quote:
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Eph. 5:22-24


... Now I can't imagine Heavenly mother who is a God in every meaning of the word having to her husband in anything, but being an equal partner with her husband in all things.
Back to Paul and 1 Cor. 11. We see Paul's reasoning for why men were permitted to speak with God without a veil was because they were created in God's image and glory. And because Paul said women are NOT created in God's image and glory, but rather were the glory of men, so she should cover her head.

Quote:
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 1 Cor. 11:7


So, Paul reasons that women being not in the form of God should not approach God without being covered of veiled. He also says that women should have long hair and men should have short hair. If women pray to God without a veil, they might as well shave their heads as it is equally disgraceful. He also reasons that men should ONLY approach God being uncovered. (Take your hats off boys... even in the True order of prayer!?!)

Quote:
Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered...

Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 1 Cor. 11:4-6


Now, I won't go into extensive detail regarding the errors in his thoughts, but I will make the following few points:
  1. Samson would disagree with him regarding men with long hair, Christ might also as I have never seen Christ with short hair, (although it is possible).
  2. If women's long hair was a natural covering, then she would not need a veil or unnatural covering.
  3. If God intended anyone to be covered, then God would have created us that way, (Matt. 6:28-31).
Paul attempts to back up his argument by referencing nature as God intended or created us, saying that nature has shown than men should have short hair and women should have long. I cannot see this in nature. If it were so, then men's hair would not grow long and men's hair would not need to be cut. That would be natural, and then he would have a valid point. And we would be discussing this from the view point of "Men should stop wearing wigs to make their hair long because it is un-natural".

However, if I were to allow my hair to grow naturally, it would grow longer than my wife's hair, it certainly grows faster than hers.

All in all, I do not think that God will ignore the prayer a women with breast cancer simply because she is bald. Nor do I think a man praying with a hat on will be given a deaf ear by God. My experience with God tells me that man's ways are not God's ways and that God could care less if we come to THEM naked, clothed, rich or poor, wearing veils or hats, bald or hairy. God's only concern is that we come to them humbly, in faith, with real intent and a sincere heart.

Not only praying and seeking to know God our Father, but also equally acknowledging and seeking to know God our Mother. They are one, but they also are individually discernible...
Re: 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 [message #1750 is a reply to message #1748] Fri, 28 December 2012 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FreddyV is currently offline  FreddyV
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I felt the Spirit powerfully when I read the words where you described women as being equal. That they together should stand side by side, working together as a single being, even as God. As I reflected on these words, my heart wonders about how we existed prior to this life? What relationships did we share? I keep thinking about the temple and the account of how Eve was created. I feel it is symbolic, yet I can't help but wonder if there wasn't a time prior to this earthly existence when we also existed as one. Any thoughts you might feel free to share would be greatly appreciated.

[Updated on: Fri, 28 December 2012 20:32]

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Re: 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 [message #1752 is a reply to message #1748] Fri, 28 December 2012 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SingleToHisGlory is currently offline  SingleToHisGlory
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Amonhi, thank you for taking time to ponder Paul's words in this chapter and for sharing with us your thoughts. What you're saying here makes sense. The Spirit is confirming to me that your interpretation is correct. Thank you!
Re: 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 [message #1759 is a reply to message #1748] Sat, 29 December 2012 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dragon is currently offline  Dragon
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Amonhi,
Another wonderful post. I enjoy the details you attend to in explaining the most difficult of doctrines. Also, you seem to have acknowledged that no matter how far you progress, there will be something you preach which is wrong. (Not only you specifically, but all of us)

Hence the need for a place like this where we can discuss things openly without fear of reprisals from those who are unwilling to look beyond the script handed them by others.

There is one part of your post with which I am having an issue.
Amonhi
They could have created Eve in the same way that they created Adam, but they didn't because Eve is not separate and independent from Adam, nor Adam separate or independent from Eve. They are one flesh, the same material and one being split into 2 components together making a single whole man. Not separate beings joined together, but a single being taken apart. We are not whole or complete without our other half.


The way I define independence of one being from another is in manner of thought. If I can have a thought independent of my wife, then I am an independent being. I cannot truly be a contributing member to my marriage unless each of us begin as independent beings. It is true that once unified by marriage we become interdependent, but that is not the same thing as dependent.

The reason I bring this up is as follows: If we are truly two parts of the same eternal being, then we were that way before this life. Thus everyone would have a soul mate, and none of us could achieve eternal progress without finding that one person.
Instead, we are foreordained to marry certain people, rather than predestined. I am a male and have always been a male. If I do not achieve exaltation, being male will be far less important, but that is what I will still be. I also happen to be sealed eternally to two wonderful women. (One rests in heaven.) Each of them are beings independent of me. However, neither of them can achieve exaltation without a man. Nor can I achieve it without a woman. Yet we are all separate beings who need each other.

I must also point out that for the first time, thanks to your post, I understand the Catholic Church's understanding of original sin and why their priesthood is not allowed to marry. Additionally, I have gained greater insight into what drives the thinking of men in certain middle-eastern countries.



- Dragon
Re: 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 [message #1880 is a reply to message #1748] Mon, 07 January 2013 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iWitness
Messages: 51
Registered: November 2012
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Amonhi,

I haven't read anything written by you so far that hasn't been ratified by the Holy Ghost to me.

Equality between men and women needs to be talked about more...MUCH more.

At a funeral of a man not long ago, the bishop brought in to his talk how women needed men because they were a weaker vessel, quoting scripture.
Here's his grieving wife, heartbroken(her husband died of cancer), and this bishop is not consoling, but opening a wound by wresting the scriptures. I was appalled.

I come from a line of intelligent strong women. Sarah Goode Marshall is my 4xgreat grandmother. My grandmother was an anesthesiologist which was frowned upon in her day. My great-grandmother was a tom-boy. I come from a line of women who knew. They knew that men and women were equals and they didn't put up with sexism. As their proud granddaughter, I do not put up with sexism.

On the other side of the spectrum, I spent a lot of time on FMH website a few years ago, and I found lots of bitterness and rage there. I feel like we need more Amonhi's in the church setting the record STRAIT for women. We need men who are decent enough to stop the generalizations. We need men who are decent enough to stop using the priesthood to exercise unrighteous dominion. I can't STAND generalizations! I've met men who are feminine and women who are masculine. There's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with that. We are all different and give beauty and variety to the face of the earth no matter our sex, color, or religion.

All truth will eventually be circumscribed into one great whole.

THANK YOU SO MUCH for this post.

-iWitness
Re: 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 [message #2044 is a reply to message #1748] Sun, 20 January 2013 23:43 Go to previous message
rdwhitaker is currently offline  rdwhitaker
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One of our favorite speakers is Richard Holzapfel. He pointed out one time that wherever the Gospel of Jesus Christ has existed on the earth, the role and esteem towards women in society has been elevated. And whenever apostasy has reigned, the role and esteem towards women has deteriorated. He gave as an example the tender regard Christ showed for women in his dealings and in his teachings -- He went completely against society's norms for their day. The Book of Mormon shows some stark contrasts between how Godly people behaved towards women and how the wicked did. Joseph Smith raised women up to equal standing with men. Many early church members thought there was no place for women in the temples of God. Joseph taught them otherwise!

One of my personal litmus tests on how godly I think I might be is how do I treat my wife? An even better test is how do I talk about my wife behind her back??

Ryan


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